– Transcript 25
R: Good afternoon. The first thing I would like you to do is to ask yourself, “Why did I come here tonight?” Think about that. What is your purpose? What do you want? Did you come to compare the speaker to some other speaker? Did you come to listen to some profound message? Did you come to hear the speaker because you heard something about him? All those reasons are wrong.
When you look at me, what do you see? If I asked each one of you, I would get forty different answers. I am like a mirror, and when you look at me, you see yourself. So if you see a dirty old bum, you’re looking at yourself. Everybody sees something else. But you’re seeing your personal ego-consciousness, is what you’re really seeing. The time has to come when you look at everybody and everything and you have no reaction — it’s neither good nor bad — where you see consciousness everywhere. Where you see beings, places, things as images on a gigantic screen. Your true Self is the screen. The images are superimposed on the screen.
Therefore, when you look at yourself you have no reaction. There is silence. In the silence is infinity. Infinity is space, bliss, Parabrahman, absolute awareness, ultimate oneness. Whenever you think, you stop the reality from flowing, by your thoughts. Whenever your mind is quiescent, calm, still, like a motionless lake, then you reflect your own divinity. And you become pure and happy and all your problems melt away. You become no thing. There’s really nothing to become. What you really do, is you get back to your original state.
And again, how does this happen? By not reacting to person, place or thing. Becoming the observer, the witness to the world. The witness to your own thoughts. Whenever thoughts come to you, you try to halt the thoughts by witnessing your mind in action, by observing your thoughts. As you do this the mind begins to slow up. Peace ultimately ensues. You become happy, blissful, for that is your true nature. But when you speak too many words, it hinders the process. When you talk to me I listen to the space in between the words. To you the words are real, to me the space is real. The space is consciousness. The words are just a mark on consciousness which has to be erased. No one ever became awakened by using words.
Be still and know that I am God. Your real nature is I-am. And the way you experience this I-am, is by recognizing what I am not!
I am not my experiences. I am not my problems. I am not the world. I am not the universe. I am not myself as I appear to be. When everything is gotten out of the way and the true Self will shine forth in all its glory and splendor, there’s really nothing to do, but be still. There are no courses to take. There’s no school to go to. There’s no profound knowledge to learn. There are no prayers you have to make. There are no obligations whatsoever. Simply quiet your mind. Do not allow your mind to control you at all. Do not think past your nose. When you see the thoughts starting, catch yourself.
Ask yourself, “To whom do these thoughts come? They come to me.” Hold on to the me with all your might and follow the me to its source. Where did me come from? How did me get here? What is the source of me? As you get to the source of me, you will realize, “I am That. I am not my body or my mind or the experience. I am that I-am. I have always been that I-am, nothing more, nothing less.” Know your Self. Search for your Self.
What’s the use of going through life gathering things, worrying about things, learning new trades, when you’re going to leave everything at about ninety years old and die? What has been your purpose then? The wise person considers this when they’re quite young. Starts to search for reality. But the search is not outside themselves. The search goes on within yourself. Am I the body? Am I the doer? Am I the mind? The realization goes on that the body, the mind, and the doer do not listen to you, to the I. They do what they want, don’t they?
For instance: Does your body ask I when it catches a cold? It does its own thing. Does it ask I when it becomes sleepy? Does it ask I for permission when it wants to go to the bathroom? The body is under its own laws of karma, but I has nothing to do with that. Find out what I is. When you speak of I, stop identifying yourself with the body, with the mind. When you do your work, do not believe that you are the doer. Realize you are I.
When you sleep, I watches. When you dream, I watches. When you awake, I watches. I is always there. Who is this I? This elusive I that’s always watching, that never sleeps, never dreams, that isn’t even awake in this world, but who is the silent witness of all your thoughts. Where did this I come from? Find out. Find out by diving within yourself. Find out by going to the source. Find out by keeping still, by becoming the witness, by not participating in the worlds activities too much. By living the quiet life. By wanting to be alone and contemplate the I.
One day you will follow the I deep enough, like holding on to a rope. Climbing down the rope. You will come to the end of the rope, which is the source of I. Then you will let go and you will find yourself in the void, in emptiness. The world has been transcended and you will become I-am. Not I am this or I am that, really, just I-am. I-am is self-contained. I-am is your real nature. I-am is absolute awareness, absolute reality, nirvana, emptiness.
You get glimpses of this once in a while, when you’re day dreaming and the world leaves you, the activities of the world leaves you. All of a sudden you feel good for no reason. Wouldn’t you like to feel like this all the time? Then what are you doing with your life?
You have to go over your beliefs, your needs, your wants, your fears. Examine everything. Investigate, go deeper within yourself. Spend more time alone, forget about the world. I’m not speaking of giving up your employment, or leaving your family or moving some place in the desert. I’m speaking of continuing what you do, but give up your mental attachment to whatever you do. You can be a doctor and know the Self by not being attached to your profession. Your body will continue doing what it does and will even do it better than you can ever do it if you identified with the doer.
Stay where you are, give up nothing. Just do not be attached to anything. Do not react to person, place or thing. Let come what may. See all things the same. Have no preferences. Have love in your heart, peace in your soul. And the day will come when you give up your heart and you give up your soul to Sat-Chit-Ananda. And you will be free. At that time you will be omnipresent. You will be aware of yourself as the universe . You will no longer be aware of yourself as an entity. But you will be aware of yourself as the universe. And your body will not exist any longer. People will see you as they did before. Only you will see it differently. You will see all existence as one. Duality will cease. There will only be oneness.
Now, what good is all this? Why should you strive for this? — Is everybody happy? Let’s be sincere. We think if we accumulate a lot of money we will be happy. If we marry the right person we’ll be happy. If we get the right job, if we have the right car, if we move to the right state, we’ll be abundantly happy.
What a disappointment. In this world nothing is ever the same. You have to understand this first. We live in a world of duality, so it seems. Everything has two sides. If you want to experience wealth, you have to experience poverty. If you want to experience health, you have to experience sickness. You cannot experience one without the other. You may say, “Wel,l Robert I know people who are abundantly wealthy and they’ve never been poor.” You’re speaking only of one life. You no doubt have many existences, many lifetimes, and they’re all carry-overs. So the first thing you do is stop judging others. You learn to leave others alone. You do not react to anything or anybody.
You begin to work on yourself. And you begin to understand, “I am not what appears to be. What appears to be may be a fact, but it is not the truth.” I appear to be male or female. I have this job, I’m married to this person, I make so much money a year. That’s a fact, but it is not the truth. The truth is that I am nobody. You have no body. Everything is no body. Everything is consciousness.
Consciousness is like a chalkboard. It always stays the same. But you draw different figures on the chalkboard. You may draw the moon on the chalkboard, the stars, the planets, people, bugs, animals, and you see pictures of what you drew. But if you try to grab them, what do you grab? the chalkboard. Consciousness is like the chalkboard. People, places and things are like the drawings on the chalkboard. They can be erased and new drawings put in their place. Yet the chalkboard always remains the same. The reason people suffer is because they identify with the images and not with the chalkboard. Or they identify with the world but not with consciousness. You therefore have to change your identification and start identifying with the invisible something that you can’t hear, taste, touch or feel. That invisible something is your true nature. It is your real Self.
Now, how do we get there? What do we do?
Thursday I gave you three essential questions that brings you to awakening. We’ll go over them again. The first question you ask in the morning, the second question you ask in the afternoon, and the third question you ask before you go to sleep. This is really important if you want to awaken. It’s a short cut. You have to do the first question as soon as you open your eyes. Do not allow your mind to think. As soon as you open your eyes, catch yourself immediately and ask yourself the first question, which is: “Where did I come from? Where did I come from?”
As I speak this question, most of you identify I with your body, and you think I’m saying, “Where did I as a body come from?” I am not saying that at all. The question is, “Where did I come from?” Not: “Where did my body come from?” The question is, “Where did I come from? My body slept, my body dreamt, my body is now awake. But I has been the witness to all three states of consciousness. For I know that I exist while sleeping. I exist while dreaming. And I am awake. I exist now. Where did I come from?” And you keep still. After you realize that I is the witness of the dreaming, sleeping and waking states, you keep still. “Where did I come from? I am now awake,” you say. “I am going to go about my business. I am going to eat breakfast. I am going to go to work.”
Notice how I always say ‘I’. You ask yourself, “There’s always I, I, I. I eat breakfast. But I’ve been making one mistake. I’ve been identifying the I with the body that eats breakfast. I is not the body!” You tell yourself, “I is not eating the breakfast. The body is eating the breakfast. After all, did the body get permission from the I to eat breakfast? The body does what it wants. The body is under the law of karma. But what about I? Where did I come from? Who witnesses these things. Who am I? What is the source of the I?” That’s how you talk to yourself. And you keep still.
Then a realization will come to you. The realization will be this. It seems everything I talk about, I always use the first pronoun ‘I’. This must mean that everything, everything is attached to I. The world, my body, my thoughts, my mind, the stars, the moon, the sun, people, places and things are all attached to I. For don’t I say, “I see my friend? I’m doing my work? I feel sick? I feel happy? I feel depressed? I feel miserable? I feel good?” There’s always I, I, I, I. It appears that everything, everything is attached to I. Therefore, if I try to get rid of everything first, it’s like the old problem: “What came first? The tree or the seed?” I will get nowhere, for when I get rid of one thing, another thing pops up to take its place.
For instance: If I don’t like my job and I complain and I change jobs. I will like my new job for a while, then I’ll have the same old problem. So I don’t do that anymore. Instead, I’m going to realize the source of the I. If I transcend the I, if I get to the source of the I, everything else will go with it. And there will be emptiness and I will be free. Do you follow that?
Everything is attached to your I. Do not try to work on the things, those are effects. Work on the cause, which is the I, and the effects will disappear of their own accord. So you follow the I by diving deep within yourself. You’re looking for the source of the I. You hold on to the I until you find its source. You do this in the morning when you wake up. So how do you do this?
When you get to the source of the I, which is, you go down the rope. You imagine the I is a rope and you’re climbing down the rope, and you come to the end and you just let go, and you fall freely. Then you start saying to yourself, “I - I, I - I,” say that to yourself for a while, “I - I, I - I.” As you do this you’re becoming calmer and calmer. As you practice this, the space between the I’s will become greater and greater. The space is consciousness. The I will eventually disappear and your identity will merge into consciousness, as I-am. That’s what you’re doing in the morning, until noon time. You can practice this in whatever work you do. You can keep saying, “I - I,” knowing the background of what we just discussed. Which is that everything is attached to I.
Then at about 12 - 1 o’clock, you go to question number two. Question number two is: “Where did the universe come from?” You’re asking yourself, don’t ask your friends. Don’t ask your co-workers. They’ll put you in those little white jackets and you’ll wind up in the funny farm. (laughter) Ask yourself, “Where did the universe come from? Where did the universe come from? Where did the universe come from?”
As you ask this question, new revelations will come to you, from your morning question. You will begin to see: during my sleep last night I was dreaming, and in the dream, I seemed to have existed just like I do now. I went to work. I had a family. I took an airplane ride. I went on vacation. I got drafted in the war and I got killed. Then I woke up. It was all a dream. But where did that dream come from?
All that dream was going on in my mind. The dream came out of my mind. Therefore, my waking state must also be a dream because I think of it. My mind is thinking of all of my affairs, my body, my work, my children, my house, my car. Just like in a dream. So the universe comes out of my mind. I have created the universe. After all, when I am in deep sleep, there is no universe for me. But I still exist, because when I wake up I can say, “I slept.” We go back to I again. This means that the whole universe, everything — people, places, things, animals, flowers, trees, stars, suns, galaxies — all come out of my mind. I have given birth to these things. “Who am I? Where did I come from?” And you go back again following I to the source. Then again you repeat the same thing, “I - I, I - I,” for as long as you can.
Before you got to sleep, before you fall asleep, you ask yourself the third question, which is: “Where did God come from?” Ask yourself three times. “Where did God come from? Where did this God come from, that I have believed in all of my life?” And you start to think about your childhood. “When I was young I was brought up in a religion, whether it’s Catholic, or Protestant or Jewish, or Islam, or Hindu. I was told to believe in God. But what do I know about God? Have I had an experience of God? Therefore God must be a belief, a concept, a preconceived idea. Where did this God come from?”
Now, if you’ve been highly religious in one of the major religions, this is going to be so hard for you to do, for you’ll think it’s blasphemous. I therefore ask you to investigate, to intelligently look within yourself. Asking yourself, “Where did this God that I’ve believed in all my life come from? And if you investigate deep enough, you will soon see, “ I believe in God. I?” When I say, “I”, I’ve been referring to my body. So that means all of these years, my body has believed in God. And I has been the silent witness observing all of this. I has no belief. I is neutral. It’s my body and my mind, that believe in some anthropomorphic type of deity. Now I realize, I is not the body, I is not the mind, and I is not God. Like the universe, like my body — it’s all a concept, a belief. God must be attached to I, just like everything else. And when I am able to transcend I, I will transcend the mistaken belief of God and become free.
So again, you go back to “I - I, I - I.” You fall asleep doing this and you will wake up doing this. If you practice this, my friends, you will be free before you know it. You’ll be totally free and liberated.
I get many phone calls. One of the things I’m frequently asked, is how do you tell a real teacher from a phony teacher? I don’t know why people are interested in things like that. The answer is always the same. If you go within yourself honestly, sincerely, and you become devoted to your Self, you begin to love yourself — not the ego self, but yourself Self — and you really want to awaken, you will be attracted to the right teacher, or the right book, or the right tree, or the right rock. But if you have many faults and you’re not sincere yourself, you will be attracted to that kind of a teacher that’s as sincere as you are. And you’ll both look at each other.
So I hung up the phone Thursday night. Horat gave me… is Horat here? No. He gave me a book to read. It’s by a woman named Lucy Ma [Lucy Cornelssen]. I knew her at Ramana Ashram. She’s lived there for many years. And I turned to a page and there it was, the answer I was talking about. She really explains it in a wonderful way. Therefore, if Mary would like to read this? I would be most appreciative.
Mary: Pleasure to be doing this. (laughs) Granted. Fine. Okay, Robert.
R: You should record this. It’s real interesting.
Mary: This chapter is titled On Gurus, Siddhis and Sannyasa. [from Hunting the ‘I’ ]
It is the mind, that creates questions and goes in search of answers. It takes some time until it realizes this fact and gives up, but meanwhile it interferes continuously in the natural expansion of the seekers spiritual dimension. Until then, question after question emerges, and Ramana Maharshi stood patiently day by day against the flood. A collection of his replies to stray questions is given in the last chapter. However, the three themes mentioned in the heading above may ask for a treatment in some detail.
There is a widespread hunting for the guru. And a lot of so-called gurus make quite a good business out of the distorted ideas about the guru and his function that are prevalent everywhere. Who then is a guru?
“The sastras say that one must serve a guru for twelve years for getting Self-Realization. What does the guru do? Does he hand it over to the disciple? Is not the Self always realized? What does the common belief mean then? The man is always the Self and yet he does not know it. He confounds it with the non-self, that is, the body etc. Such confusion is due to ignorance. If ignorance be wiped out, the confusion will cease to exist and the true knowledge will be unfolded. By remaining in contact with realized sages, the man will gradually lose the ignorance, until its removal is complete. The eternal Self is thus revealed. The disciple surrenders himself to the Master. That means there is no vestige of individuality retained by the disciple. If the surrender is complete all sense of individuality is lost and there is thus no cause for misery. The eternal being is only happiness, that is revealed.
“Without understanding it aright, people think that the guru teaches the disciple something like Tatwamasi and that the disciple realizes, “I am Brahman.” In their ignorance they conceive of Brahman as something more huge and powerful than anything else. With a limited ‘I’ the man is so stuck up and wild. What will be the case if the same ‘I’ grows up enormous? He will be enormously ignorant and foolish! This false ‘I’ must perish. Its annihilation is the fruit of gurusewa , the service to the guru. Realization is eternal and it is not newly brought about by the guru. He helps in the removal of ignorance. That is all.” [ Talks , 350]
The real guru is one who has realized the Self. But how can we recognize him? He does not talk about himself; he behaves exactly as everybody else; and if he does not, there is reason to be cautious. There is only one quality by which he is revealed in his silence, as well as in his talk.
If you’re ready for him, he will meet you without any searching for him on your part. And only then can you be assured that he is the guru for you .
Meanwhile, you are not without guidance from without. The inner guidance sends signals, as it were, ceaselessly: a certain sentence in a book, a smile on an infant, the beauty of a flower or a sunset. All of them can become the means for a sudden understanding, one of the minor enlightenments which adorn the path of the sincere seeker after Truth. All of them could become his or her Guru. The famous ancient saint Dattatreya said of himself that he had twenty-four Gurus, including inanimate objects.
Even the first quest after the meaning of life is already prompted by the inner, the real Guru. There is a beautiful experience of Moses, preserved in the tradition of Islam. When he complained, “O Lord, where shall I seek to find thee?” he heard the answer, “Thou wouldst not seek Me if thou wouldst not already have found Me!”
Who is it, that is in search for the guru? The longing is certainly prompted by the Self, as is indicated also in the answer to Moses’ prayer. But it is the ‘personal I’ that goes out ‘hunting the guru’.
If you by all means to have an outer guru, you will get exactly the kind of guru that corresponds to the stage of your development. That usually means a rather low type, because a guru of a higher standard is of no use to a disciple of limited understanding; the receiver has to be tuned to the wavelength of the transmitter for receiving, and vice versa. Thus even if there is a meeting with a Realized Soul, the guru need not refuse the disciple, because the disciple will not even perceive the presence of Greatness, since his inner senses are still clouded. He will be like the man who went in search for Chintamani, the celestial gem that fulfills every desire, who found it and threw it away when he saw a colorful pebble.
Of the worst kind among the many ‘gurus’ nowadays are those who are deliberately exploiting those hunting for a guru. Their method of catching the trustful ignorant is often a mystifying show of ceremonies, incantations, dark hints and even threats of black magic powers, with reference to tradition. Sri Ramana Maharshi said about these means:
“The books say that there are so many kinds of initiations. They also say that the guru makes some rites for him with fire, water, japa , mantras , etc., and call such fantastic performances dikshas , initiations, as if the disciple becomes ripe only after such processes are gone through by the guru.
“The most potent form of work is silence. However vast and ecstatic the sastras may be, they fail in their effect. The guru is quiet, and peace prevails in all. This silence is more vast and more emphatic than all the sastras put together.” [ Talks , 398].
But when the fake-guru is clever enough, he may even feign this attitude also.
Another type of self-styled guru may not only deceive the would-be disciple but also himself. He might have some intellectual knowledge of the Truth and be able to teach the same as far as this limited knowledge goes. The sincere seeker after Truth will, one day or other, by the silent Grace of his inner guidance recognize the limitation of the would-be guru and leave him — perhaps for another one, or perhaps he has ripened enough in the meantime so that he will now recognize the Voice of the Inner Guru — the Self — and accept it, unreservedly. Or he might follow the way of Dattatreya and learn to see the guru in all and everything, which amounts to practically the same thing.
Now there is a strange fact that Ramana Maharshi himself refused to be ‘the Guru’ of his devotees — or to be exact: he never initiated any of them in the traditional way. Some of them are known to have left him, though they loved and worshiped him, because they thought themselves unable to proceed spiritually without an outer guru. How is this strange attitude of his to be understood? Did the sage shun the responsibility which the guru is expected to take over in respect to his devotee? According to tradition, a guru who accepts a disciple also takes over his karma, bad as it maybe.
No. Sri Ramana Maharshi was only being consistent; he lived what he taught — the realization of the One without a second! When there is only One, Brahman, where is the place for guru and disciple? A guru presupposes a disciple; a disciple a guru; they are invariably ‘two’.
Can there be two Selves, the one guiding the other? True guidance is possible only when the Self of the guru and that of the disciple is one and the same Self.
The real function of the guru, higher and more efficient than his teaching, is his power of contact, removing the ignorance of the disciple by direct transmission.
This of course is possible only when the guru has himself realized the Truth. This power is so ‘real’ that Ramana Maharshi always gave the greatest importance to Satsanga — the contact of highly advanced souls — because their purity, wisdom and compassion are contagious like health and peace.
This is the actual danger of surrender to a ‘wrong’ guru — that his cunning, vanity and selfishness are just as contagious. Even the experience of everyday-life shows the danger of evil company; though it usually is taken as an evil example only. But even in that case the bad influence goes deeper. It is immediately contagious like a disease. May the Inner Guru protect us!
This mysterious land, lost in the sea, granting the gift of the supreme Truth to those who find the path into its hidden depths, also still keeps many of the secrets of magic techniques and powers, called siddhis . The number of seekers after these secrets will probably outnumber those who are in search after Truth. Though it is widely known that Ramana Maharshi did not appreciate such tendencies, usually connected with yoga sadhana, now and again he was asked about position of siddhis within the frame of the search for the Self. Once he declared:
“The Self is the most intimate and eternal Being, whereas the siddhis are foreign. The one requires effort to acquire, the other does not.
“The powers of sought by the mind which must be kept alert, whereas the Self is realized when the mind is destroyed. The power is manifest only when there is the ego. The Self is beyond the ego and is realized after the ego is eliminated. Where is the use of occult powers for the Self-realized being?
Self-Realization may be accompanied by occult powers or it may not be. If the person has sought such powers before Realization, he may get them after Realization. There are others who have not sought such powers and have attempted only Self-Realization. They do not manifest them.” [ Talks , 597]
Among the visitors of the sage was Mr Evans-Wentz, the well known Tibetologist. He too asked for an explanation on the value of occult powers. Ramana Maharshi replied:
“The occult powers are only in the mind; they are not natural to the Self. That which is not natural, but acquired, cannot be permanent and is not worth striving for.
“They denote extended powers. A man is possessed of limited powers and is miserable; he wants to expand his powers so that he may be happy. But consider if it will be so; if with limited perception one is miserable, with extended perceptions the misery must increase proportionately. Occult powers will not bring happiness to anyone, but will make him all the more miserable!”
“Moreover, what are these powers for? The would-be occultist desires to display the siddhis so that others may appreciate him. He seeks appreciation, and if it is not forthcoming, he will not be happy. He may even find another possessor of higher powers. That will cause jealousy and breed unhappiness.
“Which is the real power? Is it to increase prosperity or bring about peace? That which results in peace is the highest perfection ( siddhi ). [ Talks , 20]
The root idea in Sri Ramana’s attitude to the phenomena of ESP, or extra sensory perception, as siddhis nowadays are scientifically labeled, is easily discovered.
ESP experience belongs to the ‘personal I’. The teachings of the sage of Arunachala revolve around “hunting the I” until it submits. To seek and attain siddhis is to strengthen it. That settles the matter once and for all.
Sannyasa was in ancient India the fourth and last of the asramas , the stations of life. The first of them was represented by the boy, who was sent to live as a brahmachary with the guru, to serve him and be trained in the scriptures. The second stage was his life as a householder, after an early marriage, in which he carried out his duty to those around him and made his contribution to the collective. When his sons were settled and his daughters married, he was free to retire. However, his was not the idea of retirement to a comfortable life, of enjoying the well-earned fruits of a life of work and trials. The third stage of the asramas was a quiet life of renunciation ‘in the woods’, vanaprastha , in meditation and prayer, in longing for enlightenment.
These first three periods conformed to custom and convention, but the last one, sannyasa , the total renunciation, was expected to assert itself at its own time and under its own conditions.
This fact was behind Ramana Maharshi’s somewhat enigmatic reply to a question as to whether the questioner should embrace sannyasa :
“If you should, you would not have asked.”
The traditional idea about sannyasa is explained in Narada’s sermon to Yudhisthira in Bhagavatam , book 7, chap. X - XII:
“The sannyasi’s whole endeavor should be directed toward the discovery of the true Self at the point of contact between deep sleep and the waking state. He should look upon both bondage and freedom, birth and death, as unreal. He should not read profane books nor live by any profession, nor indulge in polemics, nor take side in a partisan spirit, nor accept disciples, nor do much reading, which would divert his mind from his spiritual practice, nor make speeches, nor undertake any responsible work. After attaining enlightenment he may continue to behave as before or alter his ways as will suit his convenience. To give no signs by which others can recognize his attainment, he retains his usual mode of life or pursuit.”
Sri Ramana Maharshi never encouraged people who thought of assuming formal sannyasa , though he hereby seemingly contradicted himself. When pointed out that he himself had cut all connection with his family life and home, he simply replied that it is a matter of karma. Discussing the subject, he saw the motivation in most cases as escapism, due to disappointment with a weary and unsuccessful life. Almost as often it is a matter of self-importance. Being in modest or even poor circumstances, you are nobody; as a sannyasi you are somebody — at least in the eyes of some people. There might be a third motive for a minority — impatience. They are not satisfied with the slow rate of their spiritual progress.
All three kinds of motivation, and all others as well, respond to the promptings of the ego-I. Therefore Ramana Maharshi gave a typical reply:
“Why do you think you are a householder? If you go out as a sannyasi , a similar thought — that you are a sannyasi — will haunt you. Whether you continue in the household, or renounce it and go to the forest, your mind haunts you. The ego is the source of thoughts. If you renounce the world, it will only substitute the thought ‘ sannyasi ‘ for ‘householder’ and the environments of the forest for those those of the household. But the mental obstacles are always there. They increase in new surroundings. There is no help in the change of environments. The obstacle is in the mind. It must be gotten over, whether at home or in the forest. If you can do it in the forest, why not in the home? Therefore why change the environment? Your efforts can be made even now, in whatever environment you may be.
“The environment never abandons you according to your desire. Look at me. I left home. Look at yourselves. You have come here leaving the home environment. What do you find here? Is this different from what you left?” [ Talks , 34]
As an answer to another question he replied:
“ Sannyasa is to renounce one’s individuality. This is not the same as tonsure and ochre robes. A man maybe a householder; yet, if he does not think he is a householder, he is a sannyasi . On the contrary, a man may wear ochre robes and wander about; yet if he thinks he is a sannyasi , he is not that. To think of sannyasa defeats its own purpose.” [ Talks , 427]
“ Sannyasa is meant for one who is fit. It consists in renunciation not of material objects but of attachment to them. Sannyasa can be practiced by anyone, even at home. Only one must be fit for it.” [ Talks , 588]
It is the sovereign wisdom of this mysterious land, lost in the sea, in the twentieth century just as it was millenniums ago, when it was expressed in Manu’s Law for Sannyasins :
He should not wish to die, nor hope to live, but await the time appointed, as the servant awaits his wages. He must not show anger to one who is angry. He must bless the man who curses him. He must not utter falsehood. Rejoicing in the things of the spirit, calm, caring for nothing, abstaining from sensual pleasures, himself his only helper, he may live on in the world, in the hope of eternal bliss.”
Thus sannyasa is neither showy, nor brilliant, nor very attractive a path, but just the one on which Truth is likely to meet the wanderer, provided that he is a true sannyasi .”
R: Thank you Mary. We’ll have some announcements and then we’ll have some question and answers. Now, if you have any questions about anything — spiritual path? — be free to ask, talk, make comments, argue whatever you like.
Jorge (SR): Robert, is inquiry and devotion or surrender to God, infallible?
R: They’re both the same. Surrender to God leads to freedom. It leads to inquiry. Bhakta and atma-vichara are both the same, there’s no difference. A person who truly loves God and surrenders to God totally in his heart will come to the same goal as the person practicing atma-vichara. They’re both the same, they’re not different. But true surrender means you have to really surrender everything. You have no thoughts of your own; you have no mind of your own; you have no ideas of your own. “Thy will be done, not mine.” It’s hard to do for most people. But if you give up all of your thoughts, it is the same as self-inquiry. Therefore, total surrender means, giving up your personal sense of I. All of your thoughts have to be given up; they’re both the same.
SD: You mentioned previously that God is something that we’ve been taught, usually as children in our culture; and ultimately there is no God but simply the Self; then whom are you surrendering to? (R: To yourself, to reality. You’re surrendering your ego.) It seems that when you talk about surrendering to God — even I consider that in my heart like very desirable. I have a conflict in how to envision this God or until it becomes personified. And when you know that ultimately there is no God, then…
R: When we speak of God here, it’s the same as the Self, or absolute reality, or pure awareness. So to surrender to God, to know God, to visualize God, means to empty your mind. When your mind is empty, God as your Self shines through. (SD: So when you say, “Not my will but thine be done,” who’s will are you referring to?) The Self, the empty mind. The Self is always “Thy will.” Your pure Self. (SD: Surrender then is not simply (unclear) which is letting go of the ego, right?) It’s giving up your thoughts. Giving up your reactions. Total peace, harmony.
SK: How can we not react? I find that almost impossible to imagine.
R: Simply by beginning to observe yourself. When you first react to people and you have a bad temper and you’re always sticking up for your rights, you begin to observe yourself doing that. And you ask yourself, “Who has this problem?” You pose the question to yourself, “To whom does this problem come?”
SD: But there are reactions that do not seem to even be problems but appreciation of a sunset or the reaction of love. Are you including that?
R: What you’re referring to is called ‘minor realization’. When you have total human love, a human love for the sun or the tree — that’s a minor realization. But complete realization is to know that all of these things come out of your mind. It came out of your imagination. You’re the creator of all of life, of the whole universe; and when you give it up, bliss comes. Total harmony, total love, which is different than human love.
Glen (SG): But you give it up, the creation? Give up the creation?
R: Yes. Nobody has realized, I suppose here, what it’s like to experience the other, after you give up the creation. But there’s that beyond the creation, which is ultimate oneness, total peace, pure awareness, Sat-Chit-Ananda, nirvana. And when you experience that, you will not have anything to say. It’s difficult for a materialistic person to know anything beyond their materialism. But what if they surrender and give up everything? Something more beautiful than you can ever imagine takes over, and you live in total bliss from there on in. Total happiness — that’s the fourth state. Total bliss happiness, total oneness, omnipresent.
Jorge (SR): It seems like we’re indulging in the illusion though, if we encourage other people to seek this out.
R: We’re not encouraging anybody to do anything. (SR: I meant, as an individual.) You’re indulging the self, you mean? (SR: If I go out and try and encourage other people to seek the Self?) Who told you to do that? (SR: Oh, this person I met down at the… no, no it came from me (laughter) Sort of like a sense of duty, which came from my body ego.) Exactly. When you search for the Self within yourself and get a glimpse of what I’m talking about, you become like a light, and people automatically gather around you without you doing anything. But when you go searching or preaching or trying to change somebody’s path, it’s your ego, as you just said. (laughs) It’s your ego that does that. But you’re not told to do anything except work on yourself. Know yourself and become free. Don’t worry about others. Everything will take care of itself.
SD: It’s one thing to proselytize. But I understand that there’s no need to do that. But if people are practicing and they ask about the path you’re on.
R: Then you can share it with them. But you don’t go out of your way. If they come to you, it’s something else. But you never go out of your way to proselytize or to convert anybody. Always remember: when you want to do that, it’s the ego. The Self rests in peace. It does not have to do anything. (SD: So the Self will respond in only like, understanding.) Yes. As an example: I didn’t ask to sit here and you sit there, it just happened. I didn’t ask to teach. I never wanted to found a movement, or start a religion or do anything. It just happened of its own accord. So I don’t care if anybody comes or doesn’t come. I can always talk to my Self. (laughter)
Mary (SM): Robert, are there any changes that the physical body goes through in this process?
R: Everybody’s different. It’s determined by your karma. Some people go through conditions called chemicalization, and that means, things become relatively worse. Because what they’re doing is bringing up all of their old karma from previous lives, and things become relatively worse for them. But if they only hold on for a while and they do not react, everything will die down and they will become peaceful and calm. And they will become the Self.
SD: So it’s sort of a purifying time?
R: You can call it that, if you like. For any person who is on the path seriously and is practicing self-inquiry, you’re calling up everything that you’ve ever had in this life and past lives; it’s all coming to the surface. So to yourself, the ego, things may appear to become relatively worse. That’s all in the relative plane. But again, if you hold on and you persevere, this too shall pass and you’ll be at peace. Once you’re on a path like this, do not be concerned; let whatever happen, for you’re learning not to respond. You’re not to respond. Let come what may, do not respond; and you come out a winner. But if you respond and you win, then you’ll have to go through the same thing again, and again, and again; for you’re accruing more karma. Therefore do not respond, and you transcend that situation. Non-resistance transcends, resistance accrues karma. It makes no difference what the condition may be.
SN: Robert, you spoke of self-inquiry and surrender. But what about the vedic practice, I-am Brahman?
R: Who says, “I-am Brahman?” The ego. If you’re Brahman, why say “I-am Brahman?” You just be, you just are. Actually, what that text means in the Upanishads, it means: “I-am is Brahman!” Do you see the difference? It doesn’t mean I, the ego, am Brahman. It means ‘I-am’ or ‘Consciousness’ is consciousness. (SN: Is that another practice?) No, the same thing. (SN: As self-inquiry?) Yes. (SN: But one is a statement and one is a question.) But you’re not to make a statement. You say, “Who is I-am?” You ask yourself the question “Who am I?” and ‘I’ will always turn into ‘I-am’. I-am and Brahman are the same. There’s no difference. So when you become Brahman, there’s no one left to say “I am Brahman”. What’s the use of saying that? It is only the ego that says “I-am Brahman”. But once you’ve arrived, there’s no one left to say anything. You keep still, rather than make affirmations.
SK: That’s two of us again, that’s two in that respect.
R: Where did you come from? How was Ho Chin? How was Ho Chin? Didn’t you go there?) (SK: But people use it as a mantra.) Ho Chin? (laughter) What are you talking about? (SK: I-am Brahman.) I-am Brahman? Some people use it as a mantra, and twenty years pass and they’re still using it as a mantra. (laughter) The best thing to do is keep silent. You’ve been to India. Haven’t you seen people repeating mantras year after year after year until they grow old and drop dead. (laughter) (SK: But then again, the other side, the opposite I’ve also seen?) Well, mantras do quieten the mind. The purpose of a mantra is to make the mind quiet and one-pointed. If you do it correctly, it can calm the mind and make it still. But why go through that path, that’s the hard way. It’s better to ask the question, “To whom comes the noisy mind?” Then ask your stupid question, “To whom does this come?” and you will find that I ask the questions and I have the problem. Find the source of I and become free. That’s the easy way.
SV: Robert, I want to ask about going into that question of “Who am I?” And sometimes when I ask the question, it’s like I’ve heard you say, “Who am I? I, I am I.” Sometimes I don’t… the words don’t come, nothing comes? It’s like…
R: That’s good. Just rest in the nothingness. Just become still.
SV: Okay. So I’ve also tried after saying, “Who am I?” Oh I, I am I. But it’s kind of a forced question, I, and looking at it. But actually, it doesn’t lead to some other feeling, because it’s like I’ve seen there’s an I which I can’t catch. It’s like an I that… (R: So, who’s the I then?) …what I call me, it seems solid just for a second and then it’s gone. It’s like a fleeting ghost or something. It’s like it’s there; then it’s not there. It’s like a sensation. And that’s what I call I, it’s not really.. and sometimes it’s related to this. But really it’s like a (flicks fingers) flashing image in the mind. (R: So what’s the question?) How to look at that? What is that and how to look at that?
R: You can ask yourself the question, “To whom comes this experience?” Or you can be still and observe it and do nothing and become the witness to the whole process. (SV: Okay.) And just watch. When you ask the question, whatever the question may be, do not come up with your own answer. (SV: Right, okay. So I can see what I was doing. I was saying, “That’s the I, and now I see it.” That’s what I was doing there.) Who sees it? (SV: Yeah.) When there’s no one to see, your individuality dissolves into emptiness. (SV: Okay, I caught it. What I was doing was, I was saying, “Oh that’s me; now I see me.”) Yeah. But if it were really you and was really the I, there would be nobody left over to see. As long as you see it, it’s not the real I. (SV: That’s what I was saying. You know, I was saying, “Oh no, it can’t be me because it’s fleeting.”) But you were saying that. (laughs) (SV: Yes exactly.) If it were true, you wouldn’t be saying that. Do you follow? (SV: I missed that part.) If it were the real I, there would be nobody left to say that. (SV: If I saw what it really was, you mean?) There would be nobody left to see. (SV: If it was seen for what it really was?) The seer would have been dissolved. There would be no seer, nothing to be seen. As long as there is a seer and something to be seen, it is not reality. The seer and the seen both have to go; then only reality ensues. As long as you believe you’re having the experience, it’s coming from your mind. Because when the true experience comes, there’s nothing left to have any experience. (SV: There’s no one left?) No one is left. It’s all emptiness.
SD: Is it emptiness or fullness, I would think?
R: No, it’s emptiness. The emptiness means bliss, absolute reality. (SD: I can think more of that as fullness, when we talk about inter-connectedness for all things, for example. That’s different to me than emptiness.) Well, you’re referring to emptiness as being nothing? (SD: Right.) But that’s not true. Emptiness is another word for consciousness. The space between words is emptiness, and that’s consciousness. So therefore when you’re silent, consciousness comes of its own accord and sets you free. (SD: So also there is no answer to, “Who is I?”) No. If there’s an answer, it’s your ego answering. Silence is the good teacher.
Jorge (SR): I was just thinking about the idea of bliss; that could be an emotional or physiological thing. Is it really bliss? There isn’t a bliss in the sense of what…
R: No. Bliss is beyond all expectations. It’s beyond all knowingness. (SR: What is it that’s enjoying this bliss, then?) Itself; it is self-contained. (SR: It is not an emotion?) No, it’s not. It is nothing we know in the relative world. (SR: We’re using the word bliss as the real status quo; but that isn’t really what it is?) That’s right! It’s ineffable. It’s something you have to experience. Of course, there’s nothing left to experience. (laughter) Then you’ve got it. (SR: When you’ve got it and there’s no name for it.) There’s no name for it. It’s nothing. So when somebody tells you, “You’re nothing!” say thank you. (laughter)
SV: Is an experience of living in emptiness, that ‘I’, whatever that is, enjoys, or loves or…
R: Then it comes out of your mind. Because whatever I enjoy, whatever I love, is a mental concept. (SV: Isn’t it that the ‘I enjoy’-part of it comes out of the mind and the other part is the actual experience?) They’re both out of the mind. For as long as you’re having an experience, and you think you’re having the experience, they’re both erroneous. (SV: I see.) Having an experience is no-experience. There is no one left to have any experience. Both the experiencer and the experience have both been transcended. And again, you go back to silence.
Jorge (SR): What does the Self do for entertainment when it finally reaches that stage?
R: The Self does nothing; but the body appears to go on just like it always did.
SV: Is that experience always happening?
R: Of course it is, to everybody. (SV: Is it like, we come out of it and then…?) Well, it’s like an illusion. When you’re in the desert and you see water and you go after the water, and it turns into sand. So we have identified wrongly with the relative world (SV: Okay.) And we think the relative world is real. This is the only problem we’ve got. So we’re not trying to achieve anything. We’re trying to remove the idea of relativity, and then everything takes care of itself. As an example: You look at me and what do you see? A body. But I can assure you, I am not a body. But the ajnani sees the body, and it sees the body going through normal things. But I can assure you, that’s not so. That’s not true, even though the appearance is like that. There’s nobody home.
SD: Then why does the appearance continue?
R: Why is the sky blue? We imagine the sky is blue. We look up at the sky and you say, “Look at the blue sky.” As you investigate, there’s no sky and there’s no blue. In the same way, there’s no body, there’s no world, there’s no universe, there’s no enlightenment, there’s no God. (SD: Then how did the illusion begin?) It never did. You believe it did.
SV: Why this intense desire to know that which we don’t know?
R: Because that’s our real nature. Your real nature is always dying for you to come back to it and wants you to be the Self. So every human being will ultimately become the Self, sooner or later. That’s why I always like to say, “We’re all hell bound for heaven, whether we like it or not.” (laughter)
SH: Why does the Self appear to separate itself from itself?
R: It doesn’t. You think it does. It appears like that to you; that’s how you see it. But it never was separated; there’s no separation. It’s like asking, “Why do I have a dream and in that dream everything appears real?” And it’s like I’m with you in the dream, and I’m trying to tell you, “You’re dreaming, Henry.” You’ll say, “No, I’m not! Robert, this is real. Look, I’ll pinch you and I’ll show you.” And you pinch me and I’ll say, “Oow!” And you say, “See, it’s real!” And then you wake up. (laughter) It’s the same thing. The world appears to be real. But to whom does it appear? Ask yourself.
Fred (SF): So the illusion is, that there seems to be an illusion?
R: Yes. For whom? Ask yourself.
SX: Seems like it, it’s always the mind that sees the illusion. (R: Exactly.) There’s this thing in the mind that is ‘you’… I don’t know if you can know who you are. It’s just listening to what you’re saying; and it seems like you say… what were those three questions? You said, “Who is the I?” or “Where is the I coming from?” The three questions — they all come from the mind!
R: Yes, of course they do. Where else would they come from?
SX: They can’t come from anything else…
(tape ends)
Absätze ohne Sprecherpräfix gehören dem zuletzt genannten Sprecher — so steht es im Buch, wo der Präfix nur den Anfang einer Rede markiert. Die Zuordnung ist eine Folgerung dieser Ausgabe. Namen in Klammern sind aus dem Text erschlossen: sicher belegt sind SM = Mary, SF = Fred, SJ = Jay, SC = Nate, wahrscheinlich SG = Glen, SR = Jorge. Alle anderen Kürzel bleiben stehen, weil der Beleg nicht trägt.