– Transcript 38
24th January , 1991
R: (tape starts abruptly) …because you are all I’ve got. That’s the wrong reason for coming here. This is satsang. There really should be no talk, no lecture. You come here to meditate, to observe yourself, to observe your thoughts in action, to see what is going on within yourself. I am your Self. Therefore when you observe yourself correctly, you see I-am.
This body is not a lecturer. This body is not a minister. This body is not even a talker. I do so for your sake. But if the average person comes here for the first time, I would be most boring, because I speak in a monotone, and I reiterate many things over again. You have to understand what satsang really means. It means being in the presence of your own divinity, being in the presence of your own consciousness. Do not look at me as something separate from you.
Most public speakers, ministers, philosophers, they plan a speech, they research it all week, they come prepared and when they leave everybody said, “What a wonderful talk.” But nothing happens. You feel good for the moment. When you go home you revert right back to your old self.
If you know the true reason why you’re coming here it will make a tremendous difference in your life. You’re coming here to awaken. To awaken from the dream of Maya, the dream of a personal I. You’re coming here to find peace, happiness. To awaken to your real nature. Therefore your being here is a meditation in itself.
The modality I use to help you is silence, not words. There are no weekend seminars. There are no special mantras. There is no initiation. There is nothing. Yet that nothing is everything. You believe you are the doer, and everything you accomplish you think that you did it. That’s a lie. You don’t even exist! You weren’t even born! How can you be the doer? There is no one who does anything. Yet everything gets done. It’s a paradox.
Everything gets done because you believe you’re the doer. When you realize you’re not the doer everything gets done in a better way, for you stop identifying with the object and the subject. You become free of all attachments. As long as you believe that you’re responsible for anything that takes place in this world, you have a problem. You will have to go through that experience over and over and over again, until you realize that you have absolutely nothing to do with anything. You are pure consciousness. Your real Self is absolute reality. I tell you, you have nothing to do with this world.
I know some of you are saying, “Then why am I here?” Well, in reality you are not here. Where are you? No where, and everywhere. Some of you say, “Well I want to experience all the happiness I can while I’m here.” Then you come under the law of karma and duality. Which means you go up and down like a yo-yo. When you get what you want you become happy. When your possessions are taken from you, you become disillusioned and you cry. Then you get what you want again you become happy. When change comes along you become angry.
This is like a person who goes into the hot sun when the temperature is one-hundred degrees and gets burned, and then runs under the shade of a tree. But after a while when he is cools he forgets the hot sun and goes back into the sun and gets burnt again. Then takes refuge under the tree again. Forgets about the sun, how hot it is and goes back into the sun, gets burnt again then runs under the tree again. As you can see only a fool would run into the sun and get burned and then back into the shade and then back into the sun.
Yet that’s exactly what we do with our lives. We believe erroneously that person, place and thing bring us happiness. There is no thing external to you that can ever bring you happiness. Why? Because happiness is your very nature. You are happiness all by yourself. When you go after happiness outside of yourself, you have to know that it’s a temporary condition. As many of you have so experienced.
You can’t wait to see a certain movie. You’ve been waiting for it to come around and here it is. So you pay your five dollars and you see the movie. And you’re happy but, then it’s over! What now? Now you’ve got to look for another thrill. You believe you’ve got to find something to make you happy. So you search and you scheme and you plan, and sure enough you get it. That lasts for a time. Then it must change as all things change. And you become disillusioned again. You haven’t learnt your lesson. You are still looking for happiness and joy outside of your Self.
Again, it is like going back into the sun, getting real burnt, and then running into the shade. And then going back into the sun again. You do this again and again and again, you never learn. Pretty soon you are old and tired, and it’s time to leave your body. So the disillusionment still continues and you feel and say to yourself. Well now I’ll find real peace when I leave my body. I’m finished with this rat-race. But no, because there is no where to go. If you believe that you’re the body then there are many bodies. When you drop one you take up another and you continue the game of hide and seek. It never ends.
Until one day you become so disgusted with the world and with life that something within you leads you to the right book or the right teacher or the right something.
And you begin to feel that there is something else. So you become a seeker after truth. You begin to read many books. You discover there is something like Zen Buddhism, different forms of Buddhism. There is the Dao, there is mystical Christianity, the Kabbalah, yoga, various forms, Hatha, rajah, karma yoga. You get involved in occult subjects, astrology, numerology, whatever. And you think you’ve discovered something. You go life after life after life being involved in those things. Yet if you’re a true seeker something else will touch you. And you will discover a guru, a teacher who is just right for you at the time.
And you will become a disciple. Yet you will still have doubt and apprehensions. You will turn off and on like a water faucet. You will stick to the same philosophy for a while.
Zen Buddhism, you will read about all the Zen teachers available and you will go to Tibet to find one, to Japan to stay in a zendo. You will run to the Himalayas. You will read all the Zen books you can find. But you’ll keep coming back to that one teacher. And that’s what makes you a disciple.
Again this goes on incarnation after incarnation. Yet if you’re really sincere, something will touch you and you will realize, “I and my father are one. If you have seen me, you have seen the father.” You will begin to feel that you are one with your teacher, that the teacher is within and without you. The teacher within you pushes you forward. And the teacher without pushes you inward.
You begin to understand that the only thing you have to do is to get rid of the idea that you are the body-mind phenomena. Thus you become a devotee, which means you become one-pointed, interested in one path. You ultimately become the path and you awaken.
Most people of course never even get to the point where they become a seeker. But we don’t look at most people do we? Again many think that a path like this is selfish. For instead of trying to help the world, instead of trying to make this a better world in which to live, we’re only interested in our own awakening.
But the truth is, unless you really awaken you can never make this world a better place in which to live. Why? Due to the fact that you are the universe! Right now, just the way you are! Therefore, if you are filled with anger, animosity, greed, avarice, and the rest of those things, so is the world! You have created the world. The world is an emanation of your own mind. What you think of yourself you think of the world. If you are filled with fear then world frightens you. If you are filled with greed you believe everyone else is greedy. The world is a reflection of you, that’s all it is.
When you awaken, you see a new world. You’re in heaven. For when you awaken you realize the real Self transcends the universe, that the world is like a dream. It exists, but as a dream.
The Self, or consciousness, is the reality, and I am that. “I am” doesn’t mean Robert, you know what I’m talking about. “I am” is consciousness, absolute reality. Therefore when you awaken you can state, “I am that.” You are no longer talking about your individual I.
You are speaking of the whole universe. I am that. Now everyone becomes that also. Remember, I am is omnipresence. I am that.
This is why a realized person can only see himself or herself. They do not see what other people see. They see love, harmony, peace, joy, happiness. Simply because they have discovered their real nature as happiness, pure awareness, absolute reality. They no longer are the personal I. They have risen. They’re no longer going into the sun and getting burnt and then going back into the shade tree. These people are always under the shade tree. No thing external can ever happen to them again, as in birth, or death or in between. The universe does not prevail for them. For they are egoless. That’s how you bring peace into the world.
If you go back in time there have been people trying to make this a peaceful world from time immemorial. No one has ever succeeded. It is the nature of this planet to be what it is. No matter how you try to improve it, it will never happen.
Why does it seem sometimes that the planet is improving? Because of time and space. It will improve to a certain degree, and then people will start talking about the Golden Age, so forth. Yet it will only go so far. Then it will start to regress again and go back into the Dark Ages. This is the dream of Maya. When you identify with the body-mind or the world, and you believe that you are the doer, you keep coming back again, back again, back again at different phases of the worlds evolution. You may come back in the Dark Ages, during the inquisition, be tortured. You may come back during a sort of Golden Age period, where there is more harmony and peace in the world. Yet you’re living in a life of duality. Which means you have to experience both. So you go back and forth, back and forth, again like the man going into the sun getting burnt, going into the shade then back into the sun, it never ends.
And let me remind you again, there are too many people that I speak to who are suffering and they say, “Well soon I’ll give up my body and I’ll find peace.” As the story goes when you leave your body you do take a vacation. You take a rest, where you review all of your karmic activities. (Remember, all of these things I’m telling you is a lie. I’m telling you these things because you want to hear it. And as long as you identify with the body, it’s true, or it appears to be true.) You take a rest then you’re either pulled back or you go back voluntarily into another body, and you continue the game, until you get sick and tired. As I mentioned previously when you get sick and tired of the game, you become a seeker of truth and you evolve that way.
The question therefore is, “What to do? How do you begin?” You begin by taking a good look at yourself, and reviewing your life in retrospect. Asking yourself, “Who has gone through all of these experiences?” And you will realize, “I have.”
You will start to think, “When I was a little boy or girl, I had such and such an experience, when I grew into a teenager I had such and such an experience. But you’re always referring to the first pronoun, I. You’re saying, “I had the experience when I was a little girl or boy and I am having my experiences now in life.” Something within yourself will make you think, “It’s always I. I always return to I. I had this experience. I had that experience. I was born, I went to school, I went to sleep, I got married, I got divorced.
Always I. Who is this elusive I and where does it come from? How does it arise. It didn’t exist when I’m sleeping. It’s only when I wake up I start thinking of I. At that time I can say, “I slept.” “Where does it go to when I go to sleep? It doesn’t appear to be around.” You begin to feel that all of your problems concern themselves with the I. So you say to yourself, “Well if I get rid of this I, everything else will go also.” And that’s true. You therefore start looking for ways to get rid of the I. You begin to understand the only way to get rid
of this I is to question it. “Where did you come from I? Who gave you birth?” And to follow it to its source.
So you ask yourself the question, “What is this I? Where did it come from? Who am I?” If you are sincere you will follow the I to its source, which is the Self. The I, or the personality, will therefore dissolve into the Self. This is called awakening. People give names to this, it’s called moksha, liberation, self-realization, reality. People attach all kinds of names to it. All you’ve really done is to become yourself, that’s all. There is nothing mysterious about it. You do not have to repeat sacred mantras or go to certain schools of ancient philosophy. Everything you’re looking for is within yourself.
There are people who always come to me and they ask me, “Robert, we should get together with the people who have been with you for a long while and have a special class where you can give us the highest teachings.” There are no higher teachings! This is it!
(laughter) What else is there? Destroy the I and become free.
So, satsang is when you come to a place like this and you’re not wondering what I’m going to talk about. You have not come to hear me speak. It’s a place where you come to meditate, to awaken, to see me within yourself, for I am yourself. If you can only remember this, you’ll stop running all over the place looking for lecturers and listening to speakers. The proper thing to do is to find somebody you have an affinity with, a teaching someone who does not talk too much, and you just sit. And everything will take care of itself.
So as I said in the beginning, I wasn’t going to talk too much, and I did. It always happens and the reason I do is because most of you want to hear me talk. But the days going to come when you come in here and I won’t say a word. Then we’ll see what you do.
Any questions?
Glen (SG): Then why you talk?
R: Who knows? Because I feel that most of the people here come to hear what I’ve got to say. So I try to explain certain things. But I try to emphasize over and over again, talking is not going to do it. It may inspire you for a while, it may give you a good feeling, but as you already know when you leave here, as soon as you get to your car you revert back to yourself. And you start thinking who you’re going to listen to tomorrow. That’s called the seeker, as I explained before. And that’s good to an extent, but it will not awaken you. The only time you will awaken is when you realize, “I am my Self. I have always been my Self, there is only one Self, that Self is called Sat-Chit-Ananda, Parabrahman, absolute reality, and I am that.” When you say, “I am that,” it will include everyone, the whole universe. That’s the time you will awaken.
If you do not understand what I’ve been talking about ask some questions if you like.
Nate (SC): Robert, is reincarnation an illusion?
R: Reincarnation never existed and it never will exist. But it appears to exist. You cannot deny it if you believe you are the body. As long as you believe you are the mind or the body, and as long as you believe in the world, that the world is a reality, then so is reincarnation. That’s an interesting question because there are many people who say, “I don’t believe in reincarnation. I’m not going to accept it.” Yet they accept that they are the body. Therefore why should there be only one body? If you are accepting that you are the body, then there can be two bodies, four bodies, twelve bodies, a hundred bodies, a thousand bodies, why only one? And that’s what reincarnation is all about. You are causing it yourself, by your erroneous belief that you are the body. Therefore you don’t deny reincarnation, you ask yourself the question, “To whom does it come?” And you will realize yourself that it comes to your body, not to you. You have absolutely nothing to do with it.
SL: So since it’s not happening to us, it’s not to worry?
R: Well it is easy to say, “Not to worry.” But the first calamity that comes along do you worry or not? That’s how you should see yourself. As long as things are going your way and you’re relatively happy, because you’ve got what you want, what if everything stops for you, will you still be happy? Will you not worry? It’s easy to say, “Don’t worry be happy,” but how many of us can do that? We only do it when things are going our way.
SN: Even if we could not worry and be happy, what good is that?
R: You are realizing your Self when you are not worrying and being happy. You’re into bliss. Into harmony and joy.
SL: In the ego state?
R: No, it has nothing to do with the ego. When you are in the ego state you cannot possibly be completely happy because your happiness is dependent on things. So what were you saying Jay?
SK: If you’re just happy and you’re in a blissful state there has got to be more, it seems like there should be much more than just bliss. (R: Well who asks the question? Remember, you’re asking the question from your viewpoint.) Right. (R: But when you experience real bliss you become the universe, the creator, God, love. It’s a completely different ball game. You become self-contained happiness. And since you’re omnipresent there is no comparison you can make, because all of your comparisons have been transcended.) SK: So on a relative level, – It’s very hard, between the absolute level and relative level there is such a thin line — but I’ve been trained in a sense to…that there is much more than just bliss, in other words if you’re just sitting in your own bliss and you cannot come out of that to…
(break in tape) …then what more is there?
R: When I speak about bliss I am referring to absolute reality, to consciousness.
You become an instrument of love in the world, of peace. You’re very presence causes harmony and peace to people. Your very presence is a blessing to the whole universe because you are the universe. It has nothing to do with human understanding and human knowledge. It has absolutely nothing to do with human bliss or human happiness. It is beyond comprehension.
SK: Then Ramana was a doer? (R: On the contrary…) Ramana wasn’t enlightened. (R: …Ramana Maharshi didn’t do anything himself.) Yet things happened? (R: He denied that he
had anything to do with it.) Well, you can deny anything you want, other people experience such things. (R: So they believed it’s because of him. It’s their belief that makes it happen.) I don’t know. Things happen without them thinking that this was going to happen, as far as I know, I don’t know actually? (R: Well to be in the presence of a Sage all kinds of things can happen.) Just as someone may get up to go to the bathroom, a Sage might wink his eye and maybe spontaneously some other something could occur that we an outsider would take as a power, a demonstrable power. (R: Yes but a Sage does nothing purposely.) Right, so in that way a power can be demonstrated spontaneously without a Sage being the doer. (R: Well the Sage does not have any power to demonstrate.) Right. (R: But I understand what you’re saying. It happens like that.) So that’s how it would occur? (pause) If one really had real strong faith, had real strong faith in all of this then rain or shine, roof or no roof, food or no food they would just be dedicated to realizing the Self?
R: You cannot make it that simple. It has to do with God’s grace, which is always available. And you’re awakening to that grace. You can’t pinpoint it.
ST: Were you a student of Nisargadatta Maharaj? (R: I wasn’t a student of his but I was with him for a while.) Are you also familiar with Jean Kline? (R: No, I don’t know her.) SH: You knew Nisargadatta frankly? (R: I knew Nisargadatta, yes.) Did you spend much time with him? (R: Six months.) Six months? (R: Um-hm.) Continuously? (R: Yes.) Was that before you went to Ramana Maharshi? (R: No, that was after.) After? What kept you there for six months? (R: I was interested.) In what? (R: In watching his actions. I was there when Balsekar was his interpreter.) Moira Patan wasn’t his interpreter then? What was your conclusion after watching him in action? (R: My conclusion is “All is well, and everything is unfolding as it should.’) I gather, that covers everything. (students laugh) Well you want to end the conversation. (more laughter)
SL: When you were talking about not doing anything, even we don’t really do anything. I wondered if anybody else was able to look back after talking with you, look back over their lives and see that really we didn’t cause anything to happen? (R: Well ask everyone else.) It all seems like a miracle looking back that, I don’t believe in luck especially, you say in fate or something, but it seems that if one believes in good luck then they have to believe in bad luck. (R: Find out who the I is that wants to believe in anything at all.) But is that true Robert do you know that about all of us that we didn’t really do anything in our lives. (R: I only know my Self and you are my Self.
Therefore you are absolute reality, pure intelligence, emptiness, nirvana, ultimate oneness, consciousness, Parabrahman.)
ST: But you cannot see her personality or my personality, can you? (R: I don’t look at personalities.) So that’s your answer, you cannot see it. If you wish to, can you see it or not?
R: Look at it this way, you take a screen and you put images on the screen. The images keep changing they have all kinds of personalities, but the screen remains the screen. If you try to grab the images you grab the screen. So I feel like the screen, and the world and it’s images are superimposed upon the screen. I see everything but they are not real to me.ST: But you do see everything? (R: Yes.) So in other words you have access to my life story, let’s say if you wanted to you could see my life as a body? (R: No I can’t.) You cannot? (R: No, because there would have to be somebody to see that, and there is nobody left to see anything.) Uh-huh.
SK: Spend a few days over at Robert’s house maybe that’s it.
Fred (SF): I hear, it causes a lot of conversation and something I think that I talk too much. But I’m glad that I’m selfish in a particular way. And I want to be even more selfish in doing what I need to do, concerning myself about my Self, more than anything else, until that work gets done.
(R: Concern yourself only with the understanding that you are not the I.) Right, that’s what I mean. That’s what I mean by the selfishness. It’s the selfishness I should have. Selfish to know who’s selfish.
(pause)
SK: A lot of people with different spiritual backgrounds came to Ramana and if they had things going on or difficulties in whatever path or practice they were doing, was he able to help them?
R: He never helped anybody voluntarily. He simply sat in his couch and everybody was doing whatever they wanted to do. He answered a couple of questions now and again, he kept silent most of the time. (SK: And that was it?) That was it. When people used to come to him with all kinds of problems he used to look at his attendant and he would say, “They come to me to help them with their problems. To whom should I go with mine?” ( SK: That leaves me a little confused. ) He was not the doer! (SK: All right, so I don’t care if he wasn’t the doer fine but this body arise and he’d be…) How can he help people with problems? He is not a psychologist.) SK: Well I know someone who is not a doer, and someone came to them and had some kind of problem in their practice dealing with part of their body and lo and behold the persons body went up and performed some kind of function to the outside eye and that person was helped in their practice. (R: By his very presence people were helped.) Alright.
SH: Is it true that he taught through silence? (R: Yes very true. He was silent most of time.) That was his central teaching?
R: Yes. And people got all kinds of things out of the silence. Just by sitting in his presence all their troubles vanished. With some people. Not with all people with some people. There were others that came into see him and they left and they said, “He’s just an old man, I felt nothing.”
Glen (SG): What is that feeling you feel? (R: What do you mean?) When you seem to be in the presence of someone who is, like you, I guess you do get to feel something, what’s that?
R: You’re feeling your real Self, your own bliss, joy, happiness. That’s beyond words.
SK: What about if the feeling changes from being in the presence of a different teacher. (R: What’s that?) The feelings different in the presence of different teachers, to me in essence. (R: Well
that’s like confusion. Because you get this feeling then you get that feeling, you get this feeling and that feeling.) And that’s confusion? (R: Because you never really change. The whole idea is to get the feeling to go deep within your Self. A real Sage gives you the feeling that you want to dive deep within your Self, deeper than you have ever gone before.
And you do and you become free.)
Glen (SG): So this feeling in a way is a kind of demonstration. If you feel that feeling you want to go away and you want to have more if you eat it, dive within yourself and you have it, no matter where you are?
R: You want to hold onto that, yes. And you hold onto it by practicing self-inquiry.
ST: Could you please tell me something about Sufu. Is that a genuine practice to worship God or is it just a… (R: I’m not too familiar with it so I can’t explain it too well. All practices that lead to God are good.)
Fred (SF): I won’t answer your question about Sufu but I met Pak Sufi once, you know and what I experienced that time is totally beyond words. The only words I know is the biblical words, “The peace that passeth understanding.” That’s a very faint explanation what I experienced when I passed him by. (R: Umm. What happened after that?) Nothing I guess, I knew he was supposed to be in that house on that day but just the same I… (R: No I mean what happened to your feeling? Did it go away?) Oh yeah. (R: Why?) Don’t ask me. It was just the way it was. It wasn’t permanent.
SH: Don’t all feelings go away? (R: Well he was speaking of an exalted spiritual feeling.) Those come and go too. (R: They come and go but why they go?) SK: Why do they go?
R: Because we’re not doing the right things. There is something about our practice that is limiting us. We should therefore dive deeper within ourselves.
SK: Is it ever a question of non-practice? (R: What do you mean?) I mean we’re not doing something right with the practice. Could it be that we’re not doing enough practice? (R: That’s possible.) My teacher told me if I ever was unhappy just do so much more practice, and he was right! (R: For some people that’s true, for some people it’s not.) Uh-huh. (R: You cannot pinpoint it.) Yeah. I understand. (R: You cannot say it’s this or that, everybody’s different.
But everyone exists. Find out who exists.)
SK: So the teacher that we’re in the presence of is touching something within ourselves and it could be a different aspect and maybe that’s why we feel a different feeling?
R: That’s true. It’s up to you to dive deeper than you ever dived before and become totally free.
ST: There is a saying about the music of the spheres. Are you capable of hearing that ringing? (R: Again, there has to be somebody left to see spheres or hear spheres. All the music of the spheres is of the mind. All phenomena comes from the mind. Get rid of the mind and it’ll all stop.) Okay you’re saying, you are talking now, that is phenomena too. (R: Umm.) How does that all go together with your all-pervasive consciousness and your mind talking? (R:The body talks. The body acts. The body does what it came here to do. But I have nothing to do with that.) Can the body hear the music of the spheres? (R: No.) It cannot? (R: Umm.) SK: If it came to my house it can. (R: You’ve got a tape?) I’ve got a CD. (laughter) SF: Robert, this comes, some of these questions may have to do something with so-called siddhas. What exactly are siddhas? Is he an enlightened being who gather illusion?
R: A siddha is a person who has been working with kundalini. And the kundalini has risen and powers are developed. But a siddha is not a Sage.
SK: Actually that’s a limited understanding of the term, Robert. (R: Okay explain the term.) Siddha means perfection and someone who is perfected is considered a siddha. And I think it’s been Muktananda since they called a siddha yoga and all that kind of stuff and they related it to kundalini but in that way someone could be called a siddha in a particular tradition so-to-speak or attainment like siddha-bhakti or a siddha-gami or something like that but siddha means perfected.
(R: So it’s semantics.) Yeah. (R: Forget about siddhas, forget about everything, find your true Self and become free.)
Fred (SF): But there are some people who are attracted to these powers and… (R: Yes.) …claire-audience, claire-guidance or whatever you call it and they equal that with enlightenment, or with Sagehood. That was the reason of my question. (R: Umm.) It’s a question of semantics, I think siddha - yes there is also perfection but there are also so-called siddhas which tend to gather and tend to manipulate a kind of powers in order to impress their disciples. And I don’t think they are Sages, I don’t know if I’m right. (R: This is true. That is why I told you not to go after the siddhas. Do not follow the siddhas. Follow the I and become free.) ST: So you are saying the Kundalini is not worthwhile to go after?
R: In my opinion anything that leads to powers is dangerous, because it keeps you earthbound. Bypass them, go beyond them. It is true that as we evolve we do develop siddhis. But the Upanishads and other spiritual works tells you to go beyond. Not to get caught. Go beyond everything. The example I use, is that the king invites you to his mansion, to his kingdom, to share the kingdom with him. But he has 200 acres of beautiful property. And when you drive to the gates you see the beautiful flowers, and you become interested in agriculture. You forget about the king. Then a few years later you remember and you start driving towards the king again. But now you see beautiful mountains and beautiful shrubbery and beautiful dancing girls, and you get involved with that, forgetting about the king. Each thing you get involved in is a siddhi, a power. But if you go straight to the king you will share the kingdom, that’s the difference. (ST: You said that your body is acting and on the other hand you say you are all pervasive. Aren’t you and your body, one?) I tell you my body is acting for your sake, because that is how you see it. (ST: Okay.) In reality no one is acting and no one exists. The body does not exists.
ST: If no one is acting and no one exists why does it all happen? (R: It doesn’t. It appears to.) It doesn’t happen at all? (R: No.) So in other words God didn’t create anything?
R: There is no God to create a thing. (ST: Nothing is created by God?) No. (ST: But yet he makes it all possible.) There is no God to make anything possible. (ST: No?) No. (ST: I
thought that God is perfect.) Nope. As long as you separate yourself from God, God does not exist. (ST: I’m only a part, portion of God in a sense.) Then remain a portion. But in reality, there is no creation, there’s no God, there’s no realization, there’s no illusion, there’s consciousness.
ST: What I am trying to get to is why is there this big universe? It’s not just because of me. When I would vanish there is still a whole universe left, right? (R: That’s how you see it.) But isn’t there a fundamental I-ness, or we all say, God, which is undivided, which is perfect, right? Is that correct?
R: There is nothing apart from you. ( ST: Well let’s forget me for now. I’m saying that there is… So if we forget you, we forget everything else too. (ST: No.) Because if you don’t exist, nothing else exists. (ST: But that’s only my point of view.) When you go to sleep and you sleep what exists for you? (ST: My point of view. But the rest point of views are — we know that there are hierarchies, you know minor creations or…) No we don’t. It just appears like that.
(ST: It just appears but the appearance is enough for us to be in illusion.) Because you believe you are the body. ( ST: Well I don’t have another choice. I don’t have a choice besides, you know when I wake up I am in the body.) That’s how it appears to you. (ST: Yeah I have no choice.) R: Well why don’t you ask yourself, “To whom does it come?” (ST: Pardon me again?) Ask yourself, “To whom does the body come?” (ST: To me.) Ask yourself. (ST: When I wake up I’m in the body.) When you wake up the sky is blue. (ST: No.) But if you go and investigate there is no sky and there is no blue. It’s an illusion. So everything you are telling me is an illusion, but you think it’s real because you identify with it. (ST: Do I have a choice? I don’t.) Sure you do. (ST: It doesn’t seem to me.) Well find out if you do. (ST: Well I’ve been trying, but there is no choice. When I wake up I am in this mind, and that’s it!) Well that’s how it appears to you, you have to ask yourself, “To whom does the mind come? Who feels this way?” (ST: It comes to me. When I wake up.) Who is me? (ST: Me, my individuality, my point of view.) Hold onto that point of view, to me, I. (ST: Yeah it’s all I have my point of view.) Follow the point of view, I. The point of view is I, my. Follow that to the source and your point of view will disappear. (ST: But you do agree that there is creation?) No. (ST: No?) SG: Well what is consciousness then?
R: Consciousness is a word that’s used to describe… (SG: Nothing?) …beyond phenomena, emptiness. You cannot go beyond that with your finite mind. The finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. But you can experience it.
ST: Are totally happy right now?
(Robert doesn’t answer but holds a long silence)
R: Shanti peace, peace. I’ve got prashad to share with you. Can somebody bring me the bag?
(tape ends)
Absätze ohne Sprecherpräfix gehören dem zuletzt genannten Sprecher — so steht es im Buch, wo der Präfix nur den Anfang einer Rede markiert. Die Zuordnung ist eine Folgerung dieser Ausgabe. Namen in Klammern sind aus dem Text erschlossen: sicher belegt sind SM = Mary, SF = Fred, SJ = Jay, SC = Nate, wahrscheinlich SG = Glen, SR = Jorge. Alle anderen Kürzel bleiben stehen, weil der Beleg nicht trägt.