– Transcript 92
R: Good afternoon. (Students: Good afternoon Robert) With all these instruments attached to me I better say something good. (laughter) It’s good to be with you again. I love everyone of you with all my heart and with all my being, no one is excluded.
No matter what you do I’ll always love you.
I receive many phone calls as you know. People talk to me about whether or not one needs a teacher in order to awaken. I always say it’s very difficult to awaken fully without the presence of a realized Master. And they always throw Krishnamurti in my face. Krishnamurti hated gurus and so forth and so on. So, this morning I brought a little book here, “At The Feet Of The Master.’ How many of you have read it? He wrote this when he was about 16 years old and he talks about his Master. So Ed would you like to read the Foreword?
(Ed reads)
“These are not my words they are the words of a Master who taught me. Without him I could have done nothing but through his help I have set my feet upon the path. You also desire to enter into the same path. So the words which he spoke to me will be of help to you if you obey them.
It is not enough to say that they are true and beautiful. A man who wishes to succeed must do exactly what is said. To look at food and say that it is good will not satisfy a starving man. He must put forth his hand and eat. So hear the Masters words are not enough you must do what he says.
Attending to every word, taking every hint. If a hint is not taken, if a word is missed it is lost forever. For he does not speak twice.”
R: Continue. Read every page that is underlined, just the underlined part.
Jay (SJ): Who wrote this?
R: Krishnamurti.
(Ed continues to read)
“There are greater things than these, things which are real and lasting. When you have once seen these you desire for those others no more. God is wisdom as well as love and the more wisdom you have the more you can manifest of him.’
“When you become a pupil of the Master you may always try the truth of your own thought by laying it besides his. What would the Master think about this? What would the Master say or do under these circumstances?‘Ed: (Stops reading and turns to Robert.) I think I have to read the whole paragraph not just the underlined things in order to make any sense.
R: Read that paragraph.
(Ed continues to read)
“When you become a pupil of a Master you may try the truth of your thought by laying it besides his. For the pupil is one with the Master and he needs only to put back his thought into the Masters thought to see it once whether it agrees. If it does not it is wrong and he changes it instantly. For the Masters thought is perfect because he knows all. Those who are not quite accepted by him cannot quite do this. But they may greatly help themselves by stopping often to think, “What would the Master think about this? What would the Master say or do under these circumstances? You must never do or say or think when you cannot imagine the Master as doing or saying or thinking.”
“Be true in action never pretend to be other than you are. For all pretense is a hindrance to the pure light of truth. Which should shine through you as the sunlight shines through clear glass.”
“You must guard to against small desires which are common in daily life. Never wish to shine or to appear clever. Have no desire to speak. It is well to speak little. Better still to say nothing unless you are quite sure that what you wish to say is true, kind and helpful.”
“It is well to keep use even now to thinking carefully before speaking. From when you reach the initiation you must watch every word less you should tell what must not be told. Much common talk is unnecessary and foolish. When it is gossip it is wicked. So be accustomed to listen rather than to talk. Do not offer opinions unless directly asked for them. One statement of a qualification gives them thus, to know, to dare, to will and to be silent and the last of the four is the hardest of them all.”
“The calm mind means also courage. So that you may face without fear the trials and difficulties of the path. It means also steadiness so that you may make light of troubles which come in everyone’s life and avoid the incessant worry over the little things which many people spend most of their time.”
“The Master teaches that it does not matter in the least what happens to a man from the outside. Sorrows, trouble, sickness, losses, all, it must be as nothing to him and must not be allowed to affect the countenance of his mind. They are the result of past actions and when they come you must bare them cheerfully remembering that all evil is transitory and that your duty is to remain always joyous and serene. Use your thought power everyday for good purposes. Be a force from the direction of evolution. Think each day of someone whom you know to be in sorrow or suffering or in need of help and pour your loving thought upon him. Hold back your mind from pride for pride only comes from ignorance. The man who does not know, thinks that he is great, that he has done this or that great thing. The wise man knows only knows God is great. That all good work is done by God alone.”
“For many people the most difficult thing in the world to learn is to mind their own business, but that is exactly what you must do. Whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not
unto men. Think how you would do a piece of work if you knew the Master was coming once to look at it. For your will must be like tempered steel if you tread the path.”
“Of all of these qualifications love is the most important for if it’s strong enough in a man it forces him to acquire all the rest and all the rest without it would be never sufficient.”
R: Thank you Ed. So Krishnamurti wrote this when he was 16 years old.
No comment.
Again, I talk to you to many of you by phone. Some people write me letters in regard to the procedure of atma-vichara, self-inquiry. Many people make the same erroneous point in their teaching in their meditation. They make a mistake! The mistake they make in atma-vichara, self-inquiry is this: They meditate on the I-thought.
To meditate on the I-thought is like meditating on your body. It improves the ego.
It makes the ego stronger. And as you realize you’re trying to kill the ego, not trying to make it stronger. What you’re supposed to do is to follow the I-thought to the source. Follow it, not meditate on it.
Self-inquiry has nothing to do with meditation. When you meditate you meditate on the source. Which is God, the Self, consciousness. You may spend many hours meditating on the source, this is all good but never meditate on the I-thought. The I-thought is a process that you follow from the brain back to the heart and the source is the spiritual heart which is the Self, consciousness.
There is always a tendency when you are following the I-thought to keep thinking of the I-thought. Remember you do not do this. The I-thought has to be destroyed. The I-thought, the personal self, the ego, the mind are all synonymous. They really do not exist.
Therefore when you meditate on them you’re meditating on something that does not exist and you’re increasing the Maya. This is why you should never think of your problems or meditate on your troubles if you have any. For you are increasing them.
You’re making them stronger and stronger as you think about them. You want to think only of the source. Only on God.
How do you think on God? You have to invoke God’s name. And what is God’s name? Who can tell me?
Students: “I-am. “
R: I-am. I-am is correct. I-am is the first name of God. So when you’re told to think of God, you think of I-am. This is very important, for this is your life. What you do determines what you become. Where your thoughts are that is where your heart is. Understand this, feel it.
There are many people who still believe that self-inquiry is very difficult to do and some say it’s even boring. But what kind of people are these? These are the people who are really attached to the world. The troubles, the problems of the world have a very strong hold on these people. These are the people who gossip about others. Always trying to find fault. Who believe they’ve been hurt. When you believe all of these things, it is very difficult to practice self-inquiry, you won’t like it, you will not care about it.
That’s why it is written that self-inquiry is only for mature souls, meaning it’s the end of the search and it is only for those people who have practiced meditation techniques or who have practiced sadhana in previous lives and are now finished with that. Now they can practice self-inquiry and go home.
Unfortunately most people are not like that. Most people are enmeshed in the world. The things of this world are very important to them. The good and the bad both.
This is why we have to talk about Maya so often to make you understand that the things you believe in this world are a lie no matter what they are. No matter how they look.
The wise person begins to reason this out. The first principle they think about is that everything is karmic. Everything in the relative world is karmic. Everything in this Maya, in this grand illusion is karmic.
If everything is karmic, how can you blame person, place or thing for your problems? You’re contradicting the teaching. And if you do not believe in the teaching you should not be here. You should be in a place that teaches you what you want to hear. But in the relative world everything is karmic, that’s number one.
If everything is karmic and you have a death in the family or you get divorced or you win a million dollars or you have cancer or you have a robust strong body it is all karmic. You have absolutely nothing to do with this. Therefore what are you quarreling about? What are you upset over?
If you were walking across the street and a car passes a red light and hits you down the wise person understands this is karmic. It was karmic for the person to pass the red light and hit you down. Therefore you don’t accuse the person, or hate the person or condemn the person. Of course that is what all the people do. But look at the condition the world’s in. You forgive the person immediately, the person that ran you down, you forgive him.
What was it Ghandi said, the last words when he lie dying? He said, “Thank you my son.” To the guy who shot him. He was thankful, because Ghandi realized that nothing can come from nothing. There is not the slightest thing that can happen to you that is not karmic. When you understand this you’re at peace. You’re not disturbed by your circumstances or what people do or don’t do or the precarious condition the world’s in. You realize the world is in collective karma. This is a world of karma.
The second understanding is, you realize that it’s all preordained. Before you took on your body you knew every experience that you are going to go through until you drop your body. Just to understand this brings you peace. If a train runs you over and you have no legs left, it’s preordained. Something is balancing itself out. There is no resentment, there is no hatred, there is no getting even. This is what I mean when I always say, “All is well and everything is unfolding as it should.” There are no mistakes anywhere. There is absolutely nothing wrong.
The third realization you have is to know what to do. In the world of Maya when anything happens to you, you do not think of the situation, you think of God. Anything, whether it’s good or bad. Do not believe we’re trying to improve our humanhood. You cannot improve your humanhood because it’s all been worked out. Therefore when something wonderful happens to you do not become overly elated. You’ve deserved this, you’ve earned this, it’s all been preordained this is karmic.
But, if you just leave it alone and rejoice in the good and weep for the bad you will continue along the path of good and bad and you will be like a leaf blowing in the wind.
What you want to do is release yourself from the hold of karma and preordination. You want to transcend Maya, get rid of the whole bowl of wax. Before you can practice self-inquiry the best thing you can do is think of God.
As an example; If someone does something to make you angry, instead of reacting like you always do, start chanting “I-am,” to yourself with your respiration. Remember to do this. You are invoking the name of God. And if you do this everything will be worked out. Not worked out like you want it to perhaps but everything will be worked out, I can assure you of this. Everything will work itself out.
Your job is to invoke the name of God. Not to react to the situation. If you react to the situation the situation will become amplified totally out of proportion. Your feelings and your emotions will get worse as time goes by and you will have a lot of work to do to get back on the path. It makes no difference what the situation is. It makes no difference how things appear. It makes no difference what the world tells you. This is between you and God.
If you call to God, God will call back to you.
Here’s an example of what I’m talking about. Approximately a year and a half ago a fellow by the name of Larry Josephson came here when we first started having meetings at Henry’s house. He came about three of four times.
He called me and told me on the phone, “Robert I love being with you but I don’t understand what you’re talking about when you tell me everything is consciousness and the world doesn’t exist, it’s an illusion, it’s a dream. The Self is all there is, and to practice self-inquiry. I want to do these things but I don’t want to fool myself. When I do these things I know it’s all intellectual but deep down I have hurt feelings.”
I asked, “What is hurting you so much?” He said, “Basically what’s happening, I was an accountant at MacDonald Douglas and I got laid off. I was with them for twelve years. Now I’m three months behind on my mortgage, my car payment hasn’t been paid. I have two small children, a wife that is very upset because my wife never worked. And every time I want to practice self-inquiry, every time I want to be the witness all these things come up. I’m feeling my problems very deeply. So I don’t think I can come back to the meetings even though I like to stay with you and see you. But I’m not ready for those teachings.“So I asked him, “Do you want a way out?” He said, “Yes.” “Do you have faith in me? That’s the first requisite. The reason I ask you this is because I have to give you the stuff you have to do and if you have no faith in me it will not work and you will not do it.”
So he paused and he said, “I have a lot of faith in you Robert but not in the teaching.” I said, “Forget about the teaching for a while. How much faith do you have in me 60%, 70%
a 100%?” So he said, “About 80%.” “Can you make it 100%?” He laughed and he said, “I’ll sure try.”
“Here is what I want you to do and I want you to do it under all circumstances.
Every time your feelings are hurt, whenever you think about your termination from MacDonald Douglas, whenever you think about not being able to pay the mortgage or the car or how your wife and children seem to be hurting because of your layoff. Think of God.”
And I explained to him how to do the “I-am meditation,” with the respiration.
I told him, “As soon as you feel those feelings coming before they take over your body completely start chanting “I-am” to yourself. Under all circumstances whatever is happening instead of allowing those feelings, those emotions to take over, say, “I-am.”
You’ll forget, but as you keep practicing you will remember to remember. Formally sit in meditation an hour or so in the morning where you will not be disturbed and practice “I-am” with your respiration. Before you go to sleep formally sit in meditation and practice “I am” with the respiration. During the day, whatever you do whatever happens immediately catch yourself and say, “I am.” Will you do it?” He said, “I’ll give it a good shot.” I said, “That’s not good enough. You have to vehemently make up your mind to really do it.” He said, “Okay I promise I will.” And that was the end of the conversation.
I hadn’t heard from him in a month. One day the phone rings and I pick it up and it’s him, I had forgotten all about him to tell you the truth. So he said, “This is Larry,” I said, “Who is Larry?” “The guy with the problems.” I said, “I remember, oh yes you were doing I-am, what happened?” He paused and he said, “Things got worse.” “What do you mean?” “Well to begin with my wife and children left me. They couldn’t take it any longer because they saw I wasn’t going out looking for gainful employment. They heard me chanting I-am, they got disgusted and left.” So I said, “How do you feel?” He said, “Okay.”
I said, “Will you continue this if I ask you? Remember in the beginning I said no matter what happens continue the procedure at all costs? Will you continue this?” He said, “Yes I will.”
Three months passed, I received a long distance phone call from Trinidad in the West Indies and it’s Larry, after he reminds who he is. He laughs and he tells, “I’ve got a story to tell you, you won’t believe,” I told him, “I’ll believe anything tell me.” So he said, “The last time I talked to you when I hung up the phone being in the house by myself before they were going to repossess it, I had nothing else to do so I started practicing I-am all day. And I couldn’t sleep at night so I practiced I-am all night. The next morning I felt a peace that I hadn’t felt in years. I just didn’t care anymore and that’s not me! All the things that transpired in my life didn’t seem to matter any longer. I didn’t even seem to care that
my wife and kids left and I was surprised with it myself but it was a feeling I never had. I decided to go out and eat breakfast. After I ate breakfast I took a walk. I must’ve walked about two miles. When I passed the Catholic church and I heard the beautiful chimes ringing. A feeling of joy welled up inside of me. I went into the church. The organist was practicing beautiful music. I sat down, closed my eyes and proceeded to practice I-am. I went into some kind of deep trance but I was awakened by somebody weeping. I opened my eyes and a couple of aisles down from me there was a man on his knees with his hands folded weeping. I didn’t even think about it I just walked over to him, sat down next to him and said, “Can I help you? Is there anything I can do?” He related to me that his father was in construction was killed when a tractor fell on him and he had just come from the funeral. I started to talk to him about predestination and how God loves him and there is a valid reason for this. We had a conversation for about a half hour. He then invited me to lunch. We went out to a restaurant and we ate and we got friendlier and friendlier. And of course one word led to another, he said, “What do you for a living?” And I explained to him what I used to do for a living, I was an accountant. He smiled at me and said that he was the director of operations for a Kaiser Bauxite company where they mined the aluminum in Trinidad and his chief accountant retired this week, do I want the job?”
He said, “I looked at him and my eyes opened and I said, “I’ve never been a chief accountant how do you know if I’m qualified? You don’t even know me?” And he said, “I know enough. Can you leave tomorrow I’m going back?” And here I am.”
So we both had a good laugh about this, oh he also told me, “I met a girlfriend who is about fifteen younger than I am, but I’m madly in love. I feel like I did when I was twenty years old.” We said goodbye and I haven’t heard from him since.
Now that story lets you understand what will happen to your life if you stick to the truth. There are so many people who are wimps. As soon as something happens to them, they get a headache, something happens financially, they feel threatened at their job and they start saying, “Meditation doesn’t work, self-inquiry is no good, nothing works for me.” And they return to the world of relativity with it’s ups and downs.
Now let’s talk about you. Where are you on the spiritual path? Be honest with yourself. When you get together with your friends what do you chat about? Other people?
You gossip about others? You talk about your troubles. You talk about how you’ve been wronged. How your wife left you for another person. How your husband divorced you.
How your boss hates you. How this is wrong and how that’s wrong. Do you realize what you’re doing if you’re doing this? You’re exacerbating the condition. Things will become worse and worse. You’re using the power of thoughts to increase the condition that you want to get rid of. Always realize that everything is karmic and everything is preordained.
You have absolutely nothing to worry about and nothing to concern yourself about. When you can become calm mentally and your thoughts have subsided a little bit then you can go to the higher teachings. Then you can understand what I mean when I say, “The world is but a dream. It’s Maya.” Then you can understand what I mean when I say, “All is well. No matter how things look. All is well and everything is unfolding as it should.” Then you can understand what I mean when I say, “All this is the Self and I am That.” There is only consciousness, absolute reality, pure awareness and you are That!
Your mind is calm you can accept this. When your mind is disturbed, full of your own thoughts, thinking about problems. When I say, “All is well,” you feel funny. When I say you are consciousness, you are not your body, you are not the doer, you are not your mind, you think I’m crazy or you don’t believe me or you feel hurt because you are enmeshed in your so-called belief of problems. And even those of you who are experiencing the good life so-to-speak, you say to yourself, “I don’t have to be consciousness, I don’t have to be the Self, I’m having fun.”
(break in tape)
…the world has nothing for you. You will function. God knows what it is you have to do. It has nothing to do with you. If you begin to act spontaneously, if you begin to live in the present and take it a day at a time you will be amazed at how this mysterious power called God will maintain and sustain you and give you untold happiness. Even in the relative world. But never outline what this happiness is supposed to be. Do not believe or think that it has to be this way or that way or it has to be this thing or that thing or you have to live in this state or that state and live with this person or that person. Forget about those things. What we call God will take care of you when you think about God. When you think about I-am. Do it! Find out for yourself and see what happens.
SU: Robert…?
R: Just a minute, just a minute. We’re at the end of the tape Mary.
(pause)
Okay now we can ask questions if you like.
SU: Robert I was going to ask when you said to turn everything over to I-am. So where does the guru come in?
R: The guru is the Self. The guru is the I-am expressing. The Self and the guru and the I-am are all pervading. So when you’re turning within yourself and you are chanting I-am and turning your so called problems over to I-am, you’re turning them over to the guru, to God and to the Self. They’re all one because it’s all pervading.
SK: Robert, this is my first time here and two things occur to me, when I hear you say the words “I-am,” all it does is like make me think of I as a separate ego because the language is not inspiring at all to me, it’s just like words are dropping back on me as a special self-centered thing so it’s not the kind of words that make me think in any special way. (R: Umm.) The second thing that occurs to me is that I can relate pretty much to what you’re saying about the karmic thing. Except for the aspect on the relative level you seem to apply such a total passivity. For instance like if someone is addicted to cigarettes to kind of like there is nothing to really think about or we’re kind of like we have to have food in order to survive even karmically we have to have nutritious food so there’s decisions to be made to be getting those kinds of things. Those are only the two things that arose in me as you were speaking.
R: Thank you. You’re coming from the standpoint of the ajnani. Which means the standpoint of spiritual ignorance. Which is no insult. You’re speaking of the relative world.
When you begin to turn within, the I-am becomes stronger and stronger for you. You begin to realize that I-am is your Self. The more you practice I-am in the silence without thinking about it the stronger you will become and will reveal itself to you.
Now as far as you’re concerned you have been brought up to believe that you have to make all the decisions or else they will not be done. This is the Maya, this is the ego that makes you think this and it’s very strong in most people. But from personal experience I can tell you that you are not the ego. You are not the person that needs to make a decision or needs to do anything like that at all. There is a purpose why your body is here on this earth. If you get yourself out of the way it will fulfill it’s purpose. It will know when and how for you to stop smoking, it will know how to make decisions.
I know it sounds unusual for you because you’re here for the first time and you’re hearing these things for the first time. It seems that there are two of you but no there’s one.
You have to transcend the thoughts, the mind and the body. You have to become still. You have to stop your thoughts. Then something else takes over that will be able to take better care for you or of you than you could ever do for yourself.
Your mind will be on I-am and yet your body will know what to do, in order to maintain and sustain it. Just like in the story I told you. The man Larry surrendered everything to I am. He became peaceful and calm. Then something happened, he didn’t plan it.
He was at a point where he didn’t care. When he didn’t care he let go. You’ve heard the statement, “Let go and let God?” That’s what happened.
SK: Although his final words you said for him felt like this young guy getting with this young woman. It sounded to me like he still was very, kind of like stuck in a egoic sense you know, boy I’m getting now a lot of fulfillment, wonderful.
R: You cannot judge him. This is his destiny. Who are we to say if he is right or wrong? We have to leave him alone. So what he has done has brought him to that point.
Who knows where he goes from thereon. It’s not for us to judge. We have preconceived ideas. We’re dogmatic in our views. We have been brought up to believe that things have to be a certain way. But in truth things do not have to be any kind of way. We have to leave people alone. It is not for us to say what is good or what is bad for somebody else. We should work vehemently on ourselves to become free and liberated. Then you will see if you’ll make that same kind of statement. If that will bother you or not. So therefore go within yourself. Practice within yourself. Rise higher to a higher state of consciousness.
SK: When you use the word respiration does that mean you’re supposed to be focused on breathing in some way as we think of I-am?
R: You say, “I” when you inhale and “am” when you exhale. But as you practice this your views will change. You will see.
SL: Robert, earlier you were saying that…when you first started speaking you were saying that when people were meditating or when they were just chanting they were getting stuck on the I and you said as a result of that instead of concentrating on God or whatever they were going the opposite way and making their ego larger. What would one say in order to do that?
R: Oh I said… (SL: …or how not to do that?) …that you were meditating on the I-thought. In other words you’re practicing atma-vichara, self-inquiry you’re asking yourself, “Who am I? What is the source of the I?” So what you’re doing is you’re meditating on the I-thought and you keep thinking about the I-thought. You’re not supposed to think of the I-thought or meditate on the I-thought. You’re supposed to follow the I-thought. You are supposed to watch it returning to it’s source and then meditate on the source.
SL: So when we kind of like get stuck in a thought, for instance if we’re saying, “Who is feeling aggravated,” or “Who is feeling this,” you say, I-am and then when you get stuck on that then you kind of like try to abide in the silence and then you said give it up to God by saying, I-am?
R: When you say, “I-am,” you have to ask yourself, “Who am I?” or “What is the source of the I?” and then you keep silent. And then you can question again, “Who am I?”
(SL: So in other words not just say, “Who am I? Who am I?”) Not in repetition. Not like a mantra, it’s not a mantra. You get down to, you say, “To whom do these things come? They come to me. I feel this depression.” Then you say, “Who am I?” and you keep still. You say, “Who am I?” again and you keep still. You allow it to happen naturally. And you will notice that the space between asking “Who am I?” becomes larger and larger. It’s that space that is the I-am. (SL: For a week just do this instead of to say, “I-am?”) Yes that’s for meditation. (SL: Yeah but it seems like there is less room for error there.) Whatever suits you. (laughter) You do whatever you have to do but by all means you do something. ( SL: I know because I was thinking I didn’t want to accidentally build the ego, you know.) You only do that when you ask, “To whom does this come? To me. I feel this.” And if you keep thinking about I feel this and you meditate on the I that feels this, that is the I-thought. That’s a mistake. (SL: So when you say, “To whom….”) You follow it and get rid of it and you say, “I-am. Who am I?”
SL: Otherwise you can do, as you suggested when you say when…like the example you gave us, that story if we’re agitated and we use the respiration and say, “I-am.” (R: Yes.) “I-am” to target the pattern?
R: To yourself. Even if someone is looking at you and screaming at you. As you watch the person screaming put a smile on your face, do not react and chant “I-am” to yourself. (SL: Thank you.)
SU: Robert I don’t understand how you follow the I back to the heart. What process is that?
R: The process is going through, “Who am I?” You ask, “To whom does this come?
It comes to me. I feel this.” As you’re saying I feel this you follow the I back to the heart.
And then you say, “Who am I? Who am I?”
SL: So when you follow it back to the heart you just think, “Who is feeling this?” and then you think of the heart?
R: No, first you say, “To whom does this come? It comes to me. I feel this. Who is the I that feels this?” And as you’re saying this you imagine the I going back from the brain
to the heart center. (SL: Focusing on it?) But then you think and you meditate on the source which is the heart.
Mary (SM): There is a bee in from the door. (SK: Insects.)
R: What’s a little bee amongst friends, he won’t eat much. (laughter) SB: Robert when you ask “Who am I?” and you release your hold on the attention and the thoughts. You automatically go back to the heart without imagining anything?
R: Yes. But for those who have to imagine it that’s okay. (SB: And if you’re doing the “I-am meditation,” and the mind slows down and stops is it okay to leave off the words?) When the mind slows down and stops it will do so of it’s own accord and you won’t have anything to say about it. (SB: So you don’t have to keep repeating “I-am?”) No. It will take care of itself when you start the procedure.
SE: Isn’t the primary object of practicing “Who am I?” to invert consciousness so that you break off contact with the external world and focus on the witness or try to find the witness? And thereby end the attachments with the external?
R: True. When you focus on the I, that I is consciousness. Consciousness knows itself and you will come to realize that you are not a body or a mind or a doer. That will all happen of it’s own accord. As you continue to practice those feelings that you are not a body or a mind or the doer becomes stronger and stronger and stronger. Until you no longer have to ask any question and you no longer have to say, “Who am I?” or get involved with witnessing or anything else. The witnessing comes without the practicing of “Who am I?” You can merely watch your thoughts, watch your actions, watch what you’re going through, then you’re witnessing. But when you get down to “Who am I?” that is beyond witnessing. That transcends witnessing because the I has returned to it’s source beyond the witness, beyond the question. It has become pure awareness and you have become the source. ( SE: Witnessing occurs then at the level of phenomena?) Yes. (SE: And what you’re talking about is beyond the level of phenomena? Before the phenomena or transcending phenomena.) Yes. (SE: And witnessing doesn’t exist because there is nothing to witness?) Yes, there is no one to witness and there is nothing to witness. There is no object and there is no subject.
SB: So witnessing is still on the level of the attention which still is the mind? (R: Yes.) The mind witnessing everything but when you do the self-inquiry and fall back into consciousness then you’re transcending the attention and the mind and all?
R: Witnessing is the same as beingness. You are and you’re aware of it so you’re the witness. But you have to go beyond that where there is nothing and become absolutely free. (SE: And the way to do that is to stay in the “I-am.” Just rest there?) Rest in “I-am,” or just wake up.
SY: Robert when you first went over to study with your teacher, to study with Ramana…
R: I didn’t really go to study with him. (SY: But you were with him for three years?) I went there to confirm my craziness. (SY: What did he teach you, what did you do? How did your days go?) Of course I wasn’t with him all day. The days went beautifully.SD: Did you meditate or did you…?
R: I used to go into the ashram and sit on the floor with everybody else. He came to visit me in my quarters twice the first time I went there. After that I just sat in the hall with everybody else.
SY: So is there anything that… I guess you’ve said it all right now, huh?
R: What else do you want? (SY: I don’t know?) (laughter) You have to get to the point in your mind where there are no thoughts, there are no questions, there are no feelings, there is just the Self.
SL: Robert is ‘om’ the name of God the same as I-am?
R: No I-am is higher. Om is the first primal sound that created the universe, so om is a part of Maya. (SL: So we don’t want to meditate with ‘om’ then?) If you like to meditate with om go ahead. (SL: Well if it isn’t beneficial…?) What ‘om’ does for you, it makes you concentrate deeper. It makes you one pointed. It makes your mind quiet. So that you can practice self-inquiry. ‘Om’ is a part of the yoga system. But this is beyond yoga, it’s beyond om.
SB: Robert if we’re doing a lot of the self-inquiry and we’re hearing a lot of the sounds, the om coming up should we just leave it alone?
R: Realize it’s from the mind. All phenomena comes from the mind. And ask yourself, “To whom does this come?” Whatever comes up during meditation is from the mind.
So the procedure is always the same. Whether you see brilliant lights, geometrical figures, Saints Sages, sounds, light currents, whatever you see, whatever you hear all comes out of the mind. You therefore have to question, “To whom does this come?” And follow the I-thought that is experiencing these things.
It is the I-thought that is experiencing all of these occult things. When the I-thought goes back into the chest area to the spiritual heart everything vanishes. Your body, sounds, lights, the world, the universe, God, there is no longer any liberation, there is nobody who needs any liberation, there is no longer any desire for liberation, nobody was ever not liberated and all is well.
SB: Robert, Ramana said that all would disappear, I think there was a question, will the world still appear. He said the world will not appear, when you are resting in consciousness. I never understood that because in sahaja samadhi you can still see the world?
R: Seeing the world and the world appearing is two different things. You see the world but not as the world. (SB: No.) You see the world as consciousness. The example is the chalkboard and the forms on the chalkboard. You draw many forms on the chalkboard, man, woman, objects. They are drawn on the chalkboard. Then you can erase them and draw more forms. The chalkboard is the Self, the forms are the world. So the world and it’s forms are superimposed on the Self. The Self knows itself as the Self and there is nothing else. Yet all the forms appear as a superimposition. So the Jnani is able to see the forms as the Self. The ajnani sees the forms as forms and does not see the Self.
Jay (SJ): That’s pretty selfish. (R: (laughs) Well why allow it to happen?) SX: Just a stupid question Robert? (R: No it’s not.) Is there a need to have so many people in the world, like over five billion people. Maybe there is a need for the exponential growth of consciousness Robert?
R: Since the world is an illusion and since everything is preordained and predestined and everything is karmic then the world appears as it does. There are times when there are many people in the world. When there is too many people there is a war and people are wiped out then there is less people. There are calamity’s, catastrophe’s, cataclysms, nature takes care of itself. When you see too many people that is your point of view. What you are really saying is God does not know his business because you think there are too many people. But everything is unfolding as it should and everything is right just the way it is. Subsequently your job is to find out who you are and to know the truth about yourself. Then you will see everything in a different point of view.
SX: I was reading about teachers who said there are so many souls so there has to be so many people so that these people can all go through different experiences? (R: Why?) That’s what I’m asking.
R: When you have a dream you may dream that you get married and you have 25
children and then you ask yourself the question and your husband, “Why do we have so many children? This is ridiculous.” But then you wake up it was only a dream. So it is with what happens in the world. Everything appears a certain way but none of it exists. Therefore with whom will you identify? With the relative world and it’s phenomena or with the Self?
If you identify with the world and it’s phenomena then you have a big problem and you will always try to fix things. To make things better, to improve the world. Since the beginning of creation if there ever was a creation people have been trying to improve the world. Look at the world today is there any improvement? There have been peace-nicks, war mongers, all kinds of people in this world since the beginning of time. And their ego’s are so big they think they’re going to make changes.
The war mongers believe if they control the world they will make the world a better world by doing things their way. The peace-nicks believe that they can bring peace to the whole world and everybody will live happily ever after. Nothing like this will ever happen. The world goes up and down for millions of years. It gets to a point where there is a semblance of peace and everything appears to be peaceful and then it goes down again to the dark ages, man’s inhumanity to man and there are dastardly acts taking place.
Then things get better again and it goes on and on ad infinitum, there is no end. So take your mind off the world and put your mind on the Self.
(A bee flies into the satsang)
The bee will not disturb you if you do not disturb it.
SI: Robert I have a couple of questions about this lad who said, “I am” and ended up in a good job and a sixteen year old woman. (students laugh)R: So you want to know how to do it? (laughter) (SI: Yeah, exactly how did he hold his mouth?) (laughter continues) The second question is, according to your experience was this person predestined to end up in Trinidad in that situation?) Of course. (SI: Was he predestined to say, “I am” for a day?) Yes. (SI: So, where does that leave much room for aspiration and effort?) We remember the only freedom we’ve got is to not react to the situation and to turn within.
That’s the only freedom we have. (SI: That doesn’t include saying I-am though, I-am is a grosser thing than that?) I-am is a grosser thing than that. Just do not react to anything that’s your freedom. When you do not react to anything I-am will come by itself. And turn within and don’t worry about anything else. Then everything will take care of itself. Never be too analytical about these things. Make it simple for yourself. Do not look into the intimate details because if you do you’re using your mind a lot and we’re trying to get rid of the mind. We wish to destroy the mind not to make it stronger by thinking about all the details.
SE: I think Larry’s in jail for tax evasion now he hasn’t practiced “I am.” (laughter) R: Could be?
(laughter as tape ends)
Absätze ohne Sprecherpräfix gehören dem zuletzt genannten Sprecher — so steht es im Buch, wo der Präfix nur den Anfang einer Rede markiert. Die Zuordnung ist eine Folgerung dieser Ausgabe. Namen in Klammern sind aus dem Text erschlossen: sicher belegt sind SM = Mary, SF = Fred, SJ = Jay, SC = Nate, wahrscheinlich SG = Glen, SR = Jorge. Alle anderen Kürzel bleiben stehen, weil der Beleg nicht trägt.