– Transcript 129
R: Good afternoon. (Good afternoon) It is good to be with you again this lovely Sunday.
It is most difficult for people to understand. That life has no purpose. Life has no purpose whatsoever. This is a blow to the ego. We think we’re so important. We go through life having various experiences. We believe it’s getting us somewhere. Yet life is totally meaningless. No purpose at all.
A good example of this is the dream. When you are dreaming it appears that you have a purpose. You’re doing all sorts of things in your dream. Yet you wake up and all of the things you’ve done in the dream. You’ve gone to school in the dream, you’ve earned a PhD, you’ve gotten married, you have children, you became a grandfather, grandmother.
Then you awaken, it’s all gone.
And so it is with this life. We take it seriously. We’re so concerned about our bodies, our affairs, yet one day we will all awaken. And we will laugh, for we are not the world, nor the body, nor the mind. We have absolutely nothing to do with these things.
It reminds me of the story of the two seekers who wanted to visit a great Sage who lives across the river. It was a rainy day, hurricane winds were blowing and they wondered if they should go across the river, they may drown. It’s bad weather. But they decided to go. For it was more important to see the Sage. Then to take care of their lives.
They tried to find a ferry man to take them across the river. But the ferry man wouldn’t go.
They found another ferry man he wouldn’t go the weather was just too bad. They finally found a ferry man who said, “Since you’re going to see the Sage I will take you across. But remember your life is at risk.” There were gail winds blowing, high waves, “Do you still want to go?” They said, “Yes.” They got in the boat the ferry man was rowing, the boat was going up and down on the waves. The water was getting into the boat, the ferry man asked, “Should I turn around?” They said, “No, keep going.” They finally got to the shore and they saw a bane of pilgrims coming from the Sages place. They asked the pilgrims, “Which way is the Sage. Where can we get the darshan of the Sage?” And they looked at the seekers and they said, “You fools, the ferry man who took you across was the Sage.”
They looked for the ferry man and he was gone he disappeared.
What is the purpose of this story? It has no purpose whatsoever. (students laugh) Why am I telling this story? To pass the time. (students laugh) There is absolutely no reason to tell you this story. (laughter) That’s the way life is. (students laugh) We become serious, we get involved in religions, we get involved with Sages, books as if these things are going to help us. They appear to help us. Just as the world appears to be real. But nothing in this world can really do anything for you. For you and the world do not exist. You are pure awareness. There is no thing you have to do to see this, to find this. You are that!
The world can do nothing to you unless you react to it and allow it to. There is absolutely nothing anywhere that has anything to do with you. Who do you think you are? You think you’re somebody important. You have a good job. You have a family. You pay your taxes, I think you pay your taxes. (laughter) All these things you’re doing, why are you doing these things? You don’t know. You were born in a certain family. You were totally brainwashed. And now look at you. (laughter) You think you’re somebody. But you’re a nobody. There is no body.
Why do you want to be somebody? You want to be somebody because you believe it will bring you happiness and peace and love, joy. You want to fulfill your life. Do you not do this in the dream. You do the same thing in your dreams. Yet you awaken and you find yourself in this dream.
You all look so peaceful. Why do you want to look peaceful? Peace is a delusion.
Birth is an illusion. Death is an illusion. You are an illusion. You are not what you believe you are. Even if you feel you’re spiritual. Who is there that has to believe they’re spiritual?
Who is the person who believes they are something? Whatever it may be? Whether you’re searching, whether you’re practicing certain meditations, whatever you’re doing, there has to be somebody to do these things.
I am saying, “Find out who this somebody is.” Who is this somebody who has to go through various yogas, meditations. Read various books. Get involved in various organizations. Who has to do this? Find out! Find out who that person is. From where did that person come from? Who gave that being birth? Who feels he is the doer? Investigate yourself. Dive deep within yourself. See who you really are and then see if there is a purpose for your life. The only justification we give to our lives is we believe we are making it a better place for our children, a better place for humanity. But if you look through history you would see the dastardly things that have taken place on this earth. You see man’s inhumanity to man. All of these things that have happened since the beginning of time.
And we’ve always tried to bring peace into this world, harmony and joy. Nothing seems to work. Nothing seems to work because you’re playing with a dream world. You are involved in a world that is a dream.
Yet for some reason you believe you’re somebody and you’re doing things in this world as a so-called person. Yet in reality you are not a person, this world does not exist.
There is no thing of this world that is of importance and you’re wasting your life by running after the things that change. I’m not saying that you should give up your life and go live in a cave. Yet that is not such a bad idea. You really do not have to give up anything.
Except your thoughts. It is the mind, your thoughts that get you in trouble. You identify
with your thoughts. You identify with your mind. Your mind creates all the pictures that you see in front of you. It creates this world that you observe and get involved in. The whole universe emanates from your mind. Everything, people, places and things have come out of your mind.
To awaken find out where the mind came from. Where did the mind come from?
The mind never existed so it couldn’t come from any place. There is no mind. If there is no mind there are no thoughts. If there are no thoughts there is no body. If there is no body there are no others. If there is no others there is no world and no universe. So you see all these things have come from your mind. You have to question yourself, “To whom comes this mind? Who thinks? Who is the doer? Who am I?”
(short silence)
Everything is nothing. No thing is your true nature. Because you exist, others exist. When you cease to exist, others will cease to exist. There will be only one. That one is emptiness, freedom. That one is absolute reality. That one is you.
Why do you wish to continue playing the games of this world and get involved in all sorts of things? Let go of the world. Let go of the pull of inertia, who makes you believe that you are a part of this world. That you are a human being. That you are an ego. That is all in the game of life.
It is sort of difficult to understand how you would function if you did these things that I outlined for you. Yet always remember that you will function without any help from yourself. You will continue to carry on dong the certain things you came here to do. You will be vibrantly happy. Due to the fact you are no longer the doer. There is no longer anyone who is responsible. The responsibility is on God’s shoulders so-to-speak. Not your shoulders. You haven’t any shoulders. You no longer have to carry the world. No longer believe that you are responsible for your condition.
In new age philosophy they teach that you are responsible for whatever happens to you. You cannot possibly be responsible for whatever happens to you because there is no you to begin with. There is no such entity as you. Who caused any problems, who is responsible for anything in this world. Such a being does not exist. Yet when you believe in your mind that you’re responsible for something the picture your mind paints in this world is of you being responsible. Then you believe that you are a sinner. You believe you’ve done bad things in your life and you have to be punished, or if you believe in the new age teachings you believe you have invoked the law of cause and effect therefore the cause will bring the effect invariably. So if there is anything wrong in your life with somebody the effect is going to return to you.
In reality, in truth, there is no cause. There is just no cause. So how can there be an effect? In other words, who created the cause? You can say, “I did.” You realize, you’ve got to realize that the I that you think is the cause does not exist and you begin to see where the I arose from where it arisen, arises from, where the I came from that thinks it’s the cause and you will find the I never existed. If your I never existed there is no cause. If there is no cause, there is no effect. Consequently you are free. You’re free right now. You have absolutely nothing to be sorry for.
This doesn’t give you license to go out and do anything you like. For if you’re doing anything you like, you’re going to fall in the pit, so-to-speak. And appear to suffer accordingly in this world. But this teaching makes you see that there is no cause for any action. Some people like to say that the first cause is God. Yet there is no first cause. God is part of the creation of the mind. Think of this.
The things you have believed all these years to be hurting you. The sufferings that you’ve had in your life. Believing that you have caused problems for people, you’ve caused unhappiness is a lie. You are free. You are Brahman. You are Sat-Chit-Ananda, effortless, causeless, choice-less, pure awareness. You have no form and no shape. You have no existence. Yet you are. You are not this and not that. You just are. You are something (for want of a better word) that is so far beyond the mundane world and beyond your experiences that you can never discover this with your mind, or with your trying or your meditating or whatever you do. You can never discover this reality. This absolute reality which you are. This freedom, this total bliss, which is beyond bliss, which is beyond freedom.
You are something so beautiful that there are no words to describe it. This is beyond God.
Beyond everything you can ever imagine. There is no name for it. When I use the word absolute reality, choice-less pure awareness, Sat-Chit-Ananda, ultimate oneness, they’re just words.
It is in the silence when you feel it. When there is total silence, and you’re not looking for a description. You are not trying to say, “I feel happiness, I feel bliss,” for when you say these words you limit yourself. For you are saying the I feels bliss, the I feels happiness. There is no I therefore there is no bliss and there is no happiness. Yet there is something, you will experience for yourself. It is no thing you can describe. It is no thing you can talk about. It is no thing you can discuss with anyone. It is not debatable. It is no thing you can prove. Yet you are that. You are that.
It doesn’t matter what appears to be going on in your life. It is because you are concerned with your miserable life that you do not experience the truth, the reality. You are concerned with your affairs, with people, with places, with things. This is what keeps you back from experiencing this higher reality I’m speaking of. Trying to get your point across. Trying to win a battle. Trying to come out on top. This is what keeps you back from experiencing this reality. If you really want to awaken you must put this first in your life.
How do you put this first in your life? By learning to be calm and peaceful under all conditions, by observing everything in your life and leaving it alone. By allowing people to live their own lives and not judging or condemning. By beginning to see that the person you dislike, that the condition that you do not like, is only yourself. Whatever transpires is yourself. There is only yourself. If you realize there is only yourself whatever you do for others or to others you’re doing to yourself.
Begin to work this way. Understand the one self and you will go beyond it. You will go beyond nirvana. Beyond God, beyond anything that you can ever imagine. When you think about these things you spoil it.
Again do not think or believe, this is too far out. You’ve got your life to live and you got things to do or feel as if you are doing the best you can and you’ve got responsibilities. Remember your body will appear to go through the processes, your body will appear to do the things it came here to do. You will continue on your track wherever you’re going, whatever you’re doing, yet you will not be you.
How can you be two different people, two different entities? To others you will appear to be a person. To others you will appear to be doing work. But the paradox about this is you will not be doing anything. You do absolutely nothing. You’re not doing a thing.
You are totally free and liberated. Yet as others look at you, you will appear to have a body, you will appear as they are. For you can only see yourself.
In other words, where you are coming from in consciousness that is what you see.
If you believe you’re a body, you’re a mind, if you believe in the things of this world then you see them everywhere you look. You see other bodies. If you believe in suffering, you will see other people suffer. If you believe in crying you will see crying wherever you look.
Whatever you believe in your mind you are creating in your life. But if you go beyond the mind where there is absolutely nothing going on you will be in a place that cannot be described. Yet when others look at you, you will appear to be working or doing the things you do.
You have to ask yourself, “Is it worth finding yourself by giving everything up?”
Look at your life, look at your world, look at what is going on in this world, look at the universe what is happening and see what part you play. Where do you belong in the scheme of things?
If you believe in your humanhood you will go through trials and errors. Fighting for survival, trying to make things happen. But as you begin to let go, as you begin to go deep within yourself, as you begin to leave the world alone, mentally, you will find that you’re becoming happier and happier, you’re becoming peaceful, joyous, free. And one day this whole universe will be gone. It will have disappeared. And the self will exist. You are that!
Awaken and be free!
(silence, then tape restarts abruptly, Robert continues)
During the holiday season I asked many of you if you would, to bring toys for the children in the orphanage and some of you responded. I have certificates of acknowledge for those of you who did respond. The only two people I see here today who did this is Fred and Jay. Tony … did also but he’s not here. Did you?
Glen (SG): I think we did also. (R: Oh right! Anybody else? Who?) SD: Sam.
R: Good, okay. These are the certificates of acknowledgement. Like the wizard of oz. (students laugh) You get your certificate Fred? (SF: Thanks Robert.) Pass this back to Tony. Give this to Pam back of you. We have one more for Tony L… but he’s not here. Jay’s not here. (SJ: I don’t need one. Why, what can I do with it?) Hang it on the wall. (SJ: I’ll give it to Tony.) No, I’ve got one for Tony.
Now it is time to play, “Stump the guru.” So pass the questions.
(Robert jokes) These two old fellow’s are sitting on the park bench and one says, “Do you ever wonder if maybe life is just an illusion and nothing really exists?” And the other man says, “Well if that is true then I’m definitely paying way too much rent.”
Q: (Robert reads) How can you distinguish an authentic Jnani from a phony?
A: (Robert answers) Just look in the mirror and whatever you see that is what you see in the Jnani. If you think highly of yourself you will see the true Jnani. If you think that you’re a phony or there is something wrong with you, you will see that in the Jnani also.
So by knowing yourself, you know the Jnani because there is only one, one Jnani, and that’s you. You are never in the wrong place. If you were with a teacher who appears to be sort of phony that is what you deserve at this time. That’s where you should be. There are no mistakes. Nothing is wrong. All is well. So if you want to find out who is true and who is false look in the mirror. (laughter)
Q: (Robert reads) Is fish as tamasic as meat? How about seafood?
A: (Robert answers) How about it? Sattvic food is always the best food to eat. If you eat whole grains, fruits and vegetables, that should do it for you. You don’t need anything else but that. On the other hand does it really matter? If you understand the truth about yourself, if you have an idea who you are, you will refine your diet automatically.
There is really no high Sage, I mean the top Sages in the world that have really eaten meat.
It’s not necessary.
Do not stop eating meat because I say so. But you rather see who you are. Find out the reason why you like to eat meat, what it does for you. You become a graveyard for animals. As far as fish is concerned, people say it’s cold blooded so we can eat the fish it doesn’t matter. It depends on you. It depends how you see this. Again the safest diet is whole grains, fruits and vegetables. The rest is up to you. You cannot generally say what people should eat and say, “Eat this and don’t eat this.” Everyone is different. If you’re living in the North Pole you have to eat whale blubber. I know that there are some people who live in the Caribbean Islands who eat whale blubber. Usually these people look like blubber themselves.
But take a look at your own life. See the things you eat and why you eat these things and why you need to eat these things. Find out where you’re coming from. Find out who you are. Find the truth about yourself. Then you’ll know what to eat personally.
Q: (Robert reads) Has there been analytical cases of a person reaching the state of consciousness that you are in by using the self-inquiry method?
A: (Robert answers) Definitely, there have been quite a few people who have reached self-realization, who have awakened by practicing self-inquiry. When you practice self-inquiry do not look at time. Do not think I have to reach it before I die. I have to reach
it by 2 o’clock this afternoon or I’ll be late for lunch. (laughter) Just do it without any motive. Practice self-inquiry without thinking anything is going to happen. Let it become part of your life, part of your nature. As you continue to do this, one day something will give, it has to. One day you will find that you’re home free. Forget about time, forget about age, forget about everything. Just do the self-inquiry, persevere, something has to give.
Q: (Robert reads) Robert how are the doctors, (whatever this word is) to where you reside who practice colonic therapy. (repeats) How good are the doctors? Here are the doctors who practice colonic therapy. Somebody gave me the name of some doctors who practice colonic therapy.
A: (Robert answers) Somebody gave me some names of doctors who practice colonic therapy.
Nate (SC): I got a question as usual, it’s simple. Still, I and some people I speak for myself, I still don’t understand this illusion. You don’t exist, you mean physically or emotionally when you say that, nothing exits. Life is an illusion.
R: You appear to exist in a dream don’t you? (SC: Think about now, not in a dream.) But when you’re dreaming… (SC: I’m not talking about dreaming, I’m talking about right now.) Imagine this is a dream, what we’re doing right now. We’re sitting like this asking questions and you ask me the same question. And I tell you, “Nate you’re dreaming your life, it does not really exist,” And you tell me, “I’m talking right now.” You tell me the exact same thing in the dream. Whatever you’re doing right now that you tell me in the dream. And I tell you, “All I can say is find out for yourself. When you find out for yourself there will be no question about it in your mind. You’ve got to find out.” And you tell me, “How can I believe this? How can I accept something like this? It sounds so ridiculous.” And then you wake up. It’s the exact same thing. So-called life never really existed. It doesn’t exist at all.
(SC: How about the physical reality?) What physical reality, that’s life, the physical reality, the mental reality, the emotional reality, it’s all part of the mortal dream.
Nate (SC): But it actually exists, that microphone stand is solid, the chair you’re sitting on is soft and solid.
R: It’s a dream chair, it’s a dream microphone. Just like when you were dreaming, you’re dreaming of the microphone and the chair. You say it’s solid then too. I come and tell you Nate you’re dreaming. I come into your dream and you reject it. You say, “The microphone is solid, the chair is solid,” because it’s a dream microphone and a dream chair. Therefore you think it’s solid, it appears solid. But when you wake up what happened to the solidity? (SC: It’s still solid, I’m sorry.) (laughs) Of course it is solid but so is everything in your dream. (SC: In a dream, it’s a dream but this isn’t the dream.) But while you’re dreaming you believe it’s not a dream also. You believe it is reality, that’s the point.
When you’re dreaming in the dream you’re reacting aren’t you? You think it’s all real.
Nate (SC): In the dream I can follow you completely but I could see that this could be a dream also. But the physical reality is some of us are older, some younger. My hand is soft, it is flesh. I can cut it with a knife. That chair is a different color…R: Don’t you do the same thing in a dream? (SC: In a dream yes but not in…) But while you’re dreaming you believe it’s real and you will not say it’s a dream. (SC: But it could actually happen now is what I’m saying.) What can happen? (SC: I’m doing this.) You’re doing that in the dream also.
Nate (SC): But I wouldn’t step in front of a car, I may step in front of a car in a dream…the dream would wake up, but if I step in front of a car in reality to me…
R: Then you wake up. (SC: Don’t get away from the question.) (students laugh) You’re getting away from the question not me. (SC: Okay I’ll just drop it, the rest of the guys think it’s a joke.) No, but look at it like this. When did you have our last dream? (SC: Probably last night.) Do you remember what you dreamt? (No answer) You forgot. Yet in that dream perhaps you were probably a king of a great country. And you had a duel with a sword with somebody and they stabbed you in the shoulder. And you bled and you hurt. And then the doctor came and bandaged your shoulder.
Nate (SC): Let me answer it like this, somebody told me about a dream I don’t know how true it is, some man said he had a dream and he had four daughters and they all got killed and in real life so-called he had two daughters and they got killed. And he didn’t show remorse and somebody said, “What’s the matter with you, you don’t show any remorse for your two daughters?” And he said, “In my dream four of my daughters got killed and I didn’t show any remorse, so why should I show any remorse for the two daughters that died in this actual life?”
R: No the story goes that, the daughters who were killed they asked him and he says, “For whom shall I mourn? The daughters that were killed in the dream or my daughters who were killed now?” So you answered your own question.
SD: Because he’s saying Nate that this is also a dream from which you will awaken.
S: I can’t…I realize that. I see that the waiting part then there will be an awakening, I don’t know what the awakening will be but in the mean time, I’m aging, feet are sore, they could be sore in the dream and they are sore now, but… (SD: They’re sore now in the dream.) R: You go through a dream, you’re born, you go to school, you grow up, you get married, you work. You have sore feet, sore head, everything is sick in your body and the whole life span takes an hour, five minutes. (SC: In the dream?) In the dream when you wake up. (SC: But in this reality it takes 40, 50, 60, 70 years.) That is how it appears. But in the dream it appears as the same thing. You didn’t know it takes a minute, five minutes and hour to wake up. (SC: Well okay) Because you were a baby and you grew up and you became Nate. (SC: I’m missing something I don’t know?) You’re not missing anything. The dream is like this. You dream… (SC: (Turns to another student) Do you understand it?) You go through life, you awaken. You go through this life, you awaken. There is no difference.
Nate (SC): All I know is I feel that I’m all alone and all you guys are sitting there not saying a thing. It’s that you all know the answers, if you do speak up.
SB: Hey Nate is your awareness sore or who is aware of the sore feet? (SC: My mouth hurts where I had surgery on my gums.) Who is aware of the sore mouth? (SC: I am.) Is awareness
sore? (SC: No awareness is not sore.) What’s that? (SC: Just what is.) So be that and that’s not sore. See what happens?
SB: Robert I had a dream, an interesting dream last night. (R: Umm.) I bought a new car.
I was driving around and a girl a friend of mine she wanted to drive it and I let her drive it and she gets in and she drives away. And then all of a sudden I see the door open and she falls out and the car is still running. And then the car goes around the corner and she runs after me and she says, “The car ran over a man.” And I said to myself, “Now I’m ruined. My life is ruined. How I wish this was a dream but no it’s real. Here I am. It’s real, how I wish it were a dream. It is real,” and then I woke up. (students laugh) I remember that. How I wish this was a dream and then I woke up.
How I wish this was a dream, but no the car ran over somebody and then I woke up. (laughter) R: That is a good story. (SB: It really happened too because when I woke up I didn’t even know I was up, it was just absolutely identical to this life, actually exactly the same feeling. It was great.) And now you’re here, going through this dream.
SB: So then I have a cold. So then I say, “Does awareness have a cold?” Awareness is aware of the cold but awareness doesn’t get a cold. So am I going to be the cold. Am I going to be the mind being the cold or am I going to be awareness who never had a cold.
R: Throw him out. (students laugh out loud) Any more wise guys say anything?
Fred (SF): Yeah, (laughter) if I ask myself where am I in the scheme of things? Either I am the center of the scheme of things or there is no scheme of things. And the reality of the situation is there is no center and no scheme of things? (R: Correct.) Thank you. I’m glad you agree. (laughter) If you hadn’t I’d feel bad. I’d be confused.
R: You’re good for nothing. Your interested in the centers and the scheme of things and realities and all kinds of things. Let go of all these thoughts, do not think! The less you think the more you’ll know. (SF: You said the less we think the more we’ll know?) Umm.
ST: Today you were talking about no causes and it’s paradoxical that in self-inquiry we’re looking for the source of the I, the cause of the I?
R: We are not really looking for the cause of the I, we’re looking for where the I has arisen. Where did the I come from? How did it arise? I’m not saying there is a cause. We’re just trying to think in our minds, where did the I come from? How did it originate? (ST: Well source for me is a synonym for cause.) You can say that to an extent too. (ST: You know there is source then there arises from the source…) Do not try to make our minds believe though, that there is a real cause because that will be a hindrance. For the I doesn’t exist.
(ST: Yeah.) We find out that the I had no cause whatsoever.
ST: Right so that was a little confusing when you were speaking about the cause, causeless.
Also self-inquiry is a process of discovery. I mean I have to take what you’re saying as a map and not as the final answer, I have to find my own final answer. Otherwise I am choosing to believe something which is not from my own experience. So I listen to what you say but for me the self-inquiry is the process of discovery of what is true. If that makes sense. I mean if I ultimately find that there is no cause but till that time there has to be only an idea. Just like the idea that there is a cause. They’re just ideas. And the experience itself is the discovery is what self-inquiry is about.R: Do not get hung up on that. Practice self-inquiry but do it in a peaceful, joyous understanding. Do not be too serious about it. Do not say this is the cause and I have to get to the cause and I have to find it, it’s the only way I’ll ever awaken. Just do self-inquiry in an easy way. Let it happen by itself.
ST: I find in my own experience that happens occasionally but at times self-inquiry requires a demands work, a lot of effort. Because I am interested in doing it but sometimes my mind because of its conditioning would rather solve a problem or digress in many other directions. There are moments when I can do self-inquiry when the mind is very concentrated. It just happens very spontaneously and very easily. A lot of the times I’m tired and I have to think about something else or I have to solve a problem that’s at least how I feel and so I have to - it’s effort.
R: In the beginning it’s true. (ST: Yeah.) But as you carry on with it, when you have to solve a problem, it’ll come automatically. Who has to solve this problem? ( ST: Right. It happens, but in the beginning it’s work wanting to get my mind away from the habit of wanting to solve a problem. Rather than looking at the bigger picture if that makes sense? ) Yes it does, it appears as work. (ST: Right.) But try to understand that it is not really work. (ST: Right I understand that only at moments.) Because the person that does the work that is practicing self-inquiry doesn’t exist. (ST: Right) SD: In the same way I think whether you’re looking for the source or the cause when you discover that there is no I then there would of necessity have been no source or cause.
R: Of course right. The point is do not put too much emphasis on the cause. Say, I have to find the cause of the I. What you’re really doing when you do that is, you are imagining there is an I that exists and you have to find its cause. Whereas it’s a question.
From whence does the I come? You’re just wondering about it. (SD: It is sort of rhetorical right?) It is sort of rhetorical yes. You are wondering about, “Where does the I come from?
What is the source of the I?”
SB: Robert also, cause implies motion. A cause moving into an effect but the word source does not have to imply motion. It could be a motionless source.
R: How about apple sauce. (students laugh) (SB: How about spaghetti sauce. No, I mean a source that could be - is no motion, you know. There’s a difference.) You could say that yes.
ST: Isn’t self-inquiry a process of discovery I mean. If we go into self-inquiry we can assume that everything you are saying is correct, believe in what you’re saying or disbelieve what you’re saying and find out for ourselves and it seems to me if you try to set up self-inquiry in a way — yes I know the ego, the I is unreal — then it’s not a pure question any more, it’s a bias question.
I know that it’s unreal so I am only asking myself a question that I already know the answer to.
Understand what I’m saying?
R: Yes but if you keep in back of your mind… (ST: So there is no freshness to the question, it’s just…I know the answer and I’m just…it becomes like a mantra or something that’s dead.) If you have in back of your mind that there is no source, there is no I and keep asking
anyway. But you feel some place in back of your mind that it doesn’t really exist, it’ll happen faster.
SK: Perhaps for most of us that place at the back of our minds is rather a big place. (laughter) Like he says we really are confused about this I business and it’s a real human impression. It sounds like sometimes you say, “Now we’ve got that problem solved so now let’s go and play that even though we know there is not a real I.” In fact there are a lot of voices around that think they are a real I, I suspect.
R: You have to work with that. You have to inquire, “For whom comes the I? For whom is the I?” But you have to have a little understanding at the back of your mind that there is no I that really exists. (SK: Right but that may be damn little for me and these words…) Then keep asking. Keep inquiring.
SK: Also going back to what you were saying that, the idea of doing it rather lightly…perhaps what word would you use, playfully or gently for self-inquiry, I can’t remember exactly what word… (R: Umm.) And the way to talk about that would be as follows. For example occasionally self-inquiry perhaps for many of us seems to go well, you know everything appears good, there is peace and stuff and we’re really in fat city, you know this sitting there and everything working. Many times it doesn’t seem to be working that way, like that. Perhaps there is a tendency for the mind to want to force it to feel like that, to be like that. Is what you’re saying, just ask and if the mind goes chatty and all that don’t worry about forcing it into that…
R: Exactly, that is what I’m saying. When that happens you watch the mind you become the observer and you leave it alone. When self-inquiry becomes a burden to you, when you feel you’re spinning your wheels then just watch yourself.
SK: Can you not also just do self-inquiry even though it’s not working well? Doing it without worrying about the fact that it doesn’t seem to be quote working well and there doesn’t seem to be giving a lot of peace and quiet. You still just sort of do it without worrying about the fact that you don’t like the results.
R: You can do it but it will not be as effective. It’s only effective when you do it without having any tension. When there is no tension in your mind and in your body.
You’re simply inquiring, “To whom does the I come? What is its source?” And you wait. If you feel upset, if you feel it’s a waste of time then observe yourself, watch yourself, find out who feels this way. Ask, “To whom does this tension come? Who feels up tight? Who feels as if they’re spinning their wheels?” (SK: That is self-inquiry?) Self-inquiry. (SK: That is just the stuff below, where is the source?) You are getting to every problem that comes into your mind, then it is to attack every problem. But to realize some place at the back of your mind that there are no problems. You can do both at the same time. You can be attacking the problem inquiring about the problem, “To whom does it come?” Then there will be something that tells that there are no problems and you’ll start laughing. There is nothing to attack. But if you take it too seriously then you’re bringing it to life. You’re making it a reality. You are making it a part of the relative world. As if it really exists. And it’s a fight you’ve got on your hands.SF: In the mountain path there is a piece called the answer is in the question. It’s hard to expect an answer in the question. (R: Umm.) Kind of a forlorn hope or intellectual.
R: The answer is in the question, that’s right.
ST: It seems to me because I had stages of doubt at times. It seems that doubt is the greatest enemy because it’s what you’re talking about because it’s almost hopeless. When you hit some heavy duty doubt, when you really want to know and then you’re saying we have to take all of this as faith that what you’re saying is correct. Then I’m stuck. Really I can’t go beyond it because when the doubt comes up I don’t want to believe anybody or anything. I just want to know what is true and I can’t buy that the I is not real at that time because it just seems too real and then it’s exactly what you’re talking about, it’s a fight. The fight goes on between who is right, who is wrong, who is leading me down, you know.
I think that if truth comes it has to be self evident, has to be obvious and there can be no trace that someone told me it was the way it was and I bought into that. (R: Umm.) Because it seems that it’s a changeable, you know if you change your mind tomorrow then I’m screwed you know. (students laugh) You know, somebody out of the blue, you said well you know all I’ve said all these years are all bullshit, the fact is that you know, I was wrong and you guys are all just idiots for following me. (laughter) Where are we, we’re up the creek without a paddle you know.
R: This is why I say so many times you probably are not here at these times. Do not believe a word I say. (ST: Yeah but you’re saying do believe now. Do believe this I isn’t real.
Do believe have in the back of your mind this is not real, this is all an illusion. This is a dream. This is bah this is that, you know.) This is my confession. (ST: Yeah that’s from your experience but I’m saying at times I really am into that because I have faith in you but the mind has it’s way of creating this enormous doubt at times.) Of course it does. (ST: And then I’m just sitting there going, I don’t know, who is right, who is wrong and the mind is devious and seems that the mind can whup me every time you know. And I resolve it somehow and the answers, what I’m saying your answers are not satisfying me because it seems predicated upon faith again in you and the mind has a vicious doubt that comes up. Because I guess it tries to hold on to the last degree. I don’t know if other people can relate to what I’m saying or not…
R: Many can of course. (ST: So…) It happens to everybody. What you should do when that happens is to keep still. (ST: What happens is…) Just watch. Watch your thoughts keep still.
ST: What happens is I go…okay I’ve tried that, I go still I observe and then what happens when I’m an observation my mind even gets more active and then I end up going down some other garden path and then it’s a while before I even think about self-inquiry again. Do you understand?
It’s just this vicious kind of mind that I’m dealing with here.
R: I understand perfectly. But try to say to yourself, “I don’t care what my mind is doing. Let my mind go whatever direction it wants.” In other words flow with it do not try to stop it because it will overwhelm you. (ST: That is what it does.) Because you’re trying to fight it, don’t try to fight it, just say, “Okay go ahead, do what you will, (ST: Yeah, it does.) go where you want.” (ST: Even days later I come back to self-inquiry you know.) (laughter)
R: Just watch and let it go. But if you do exactly what I tell you now, let the mind go in whatever direction it goes, but become the observer of the thoughts. Just watch where you’re going. Watch your thoughts deluding you. Watch them pushing you away.
Observe them thoroughly. But do not get excited, do not get mad at your thoughts. Do not get mad at yourself. Do not get upset about it. Just say, “It’s okay to do that mind. You can do whatever you like. It’s okay.” Just by observing that, the mind will become weaker it will not have the strength to continue fighting you.
ST: Well then I build up this heavy duty ego observer you know. What my understanding of observer is, the observer is like the place where the ego hides, the last hiding place of the ego. So you’re asking me to jump into another part of my ego and watch this part of the ego. Does that make sense?
R: Forget about jumping into another part of your ego. (ST: The observer is the ego?) But the observer is the less ego. (ST: Oh.) It’s not a complete ego. It’s a very subtle part of the ego. (ST: Right.) It’s the last part of the ego that is destroyed. So as you watch it this way and you observe it this way, the mind becomes weaker and weaker, and the ego will destroy itself.
SD: I relate to everything that John is just saying and I also feel sometimes that self-inquiry keeps the mind busier than say a mantra. But I think the answer to our having faith in you, you have already covered by saying find out for yourself. Find out for ourselves is not too different from having faith. And you always do suggest that. That the only way is by not believing you but by knowing on our own. (R: Of course.)
Mary (SM): How about surrender Robert? Can you work the two together?
R: Surrender is very good. Surrender is just letting go completely of the struggle.
Letting go of the mind. Whatever it’s doing, whatever it’s saying, whatever it’s telling you.
Giving it all to God so-to-speak, releasing yourself. Not allowing your mind to do anything to hurt you. Whatever it does, you surrender it. By saying, “Not mine, but thine.”
SD: So in other words say for example if our mind gets really busy and we sort of catch ourselves being busy that we could say, “God take this busyness from me,” or I surrender this busyness? (R: You can say, “I have no mind of my own. I have no thoughts of my own. I have no body of my own. It’s all yours.”) Which we have to do to the guru? (R: Yes.) So I know one time you said something about giving thoughts to me that would be, it would be…just when you find yourself so busy I sometimes say, “Robert take these thoughts from me.” And I imagine that you’ve taken them and they’re not my problem anymore.
R: You let go, you surrender, you give them up. That is a good method. Good practice. (SH: Do you really want all that garbage?) (laughter) SD: It doesn’t affect him, does it?
R: It doesn’t exist. (SH: Wow, then you don’t receive it.) It goes through me. (SH: It doesn’t even do that if it doesn’t exist. Who is the you it goes through?) The you that you think appears true. (SH: Wow that’s doubly good.) (laughter) You believe that I’m taking your stuff from you. But when you give it up you feel better and I feel better. (SH: I don’t involve you at all, so there is no need to.) If you like to you can surrender the stuff. (SH: I wouldn’t do you a dirty trick like that.)
SD: But it wouldn’t affect him. (SH: He says it wouldn’t but it might. I wouldn’t want to slaughter you Robert.) He tells me there’s no meaning, it’s not going to…
SB: No wonder you’re so fat.
R: You can use any method you like. (SH: Yeah.) But do not be disturbed about the mind or the ego or what appears to come to you. Be still. Be quiet.
ST: I have issues about that about just being quiet, because you know there is a lot of people that go up on to the mountain top and they’re real quiet for twenty years and when they come down and they get pissed off and it’s all over you know. (laughter) (R: You’re right.) So quietness you know to hell with it you know. So you keep the samskaras quiet for a while and then they get a little aggressive when you get involved again, so it just doesn’t seem that quietness is the answer.
Quietness maybe is a symptom of either two things, either a pacification of the samskaras, so that is that you retreat from the world and then nobody bothers you and then you’re happy for your whole life. You win 3 million dollars in lotto and you get a nice place you’re all set you know.
And the second way is that you really burn off those samskaras and no matter if you live in hell and you feel happy you know. Because there are a lot of people in India I notice are into the observer and one guy spent seven years in a teraboda monastery he did a lot of self observation. And he noticed when he got back everybody aggravated him you know. So he said, “To hell with all that silence and observing the Self let’s do some therapy. Let’s get in there and clean out the old garbage pit.” And so that was his way of resolving it. And it just seems that the silence isn’t enough. Okay we pacify those little samskaras for a while but hell how can we know that they’re really burned. I can understand the idea that the grace you’re transmitting is burning the samskaras, like you say do the silence certain times of the day. But I don’t think that necessarily silence is the answer for liberation. It could be pacification and often is you know.
R: That’s a good point but what I’m getting at when I say be in silence, (ST: Yeah.) I don’t mean to go away to a cave or to a mountain top or to hide from your work, be in silence where you are. Be in silence by not reacting. This is what I’m referring to.
ST: But by tiemas, my friend used to say about tiemas. They go in like a bastard they are like a saint for twenty minutes and they come out like a bastard. (students laugh) So I’ve been a bastard a lot of my life and I want to be a little different you know. I can understand self-inquiry maybe if we can find the source. Something beyond the personal I that, just that discovery there will just awaken us. But I think that pure silence sometimes when you speak seems to be a pacification of the ego, you know?
R: Not really. The silence I’m speaking of is the mind becomes weaker and weaker until it dies. And you do this by looking at the world. The vicissitudes of the world that you’re in, the problems you go through, watching them, not reacting. Keeping the mind from reacting that is quieting the mind. That is the silence I’m talking about.
So you can be in your job, you can be anywhere. You notice the things that used to bother you and annoy you no longer have the power to do that because you are not reacting, you are not accepting it. And your mind has become quiet while it’s active. So this is quietness in activity. Things are happening all around you, you’re not hiding from it.
You’re not trying not to think about anything, you’re just not reacting. When you do not react the mind becomes still. The mind quiets, as it becomes quiet this way it weakens and you will eventually get rid of it. So that is the silence I’m talking about.
ST: Well why doesn’t it work for all those billions of people in the world over many centuries who have had years and years of quiet meditation time you know. Whether they are Buddhist or Hindu or Christian or Vedic or whatever who are just bastards after all these years.
I saw a whole thousand Buddhists spent years at a ceremony and they were pushing and shoving just as hard as anybody…
(tape finishes abruptly)
Absätze ohne Sprecherpräfix gehören dem zuletzt genannten Sprecher — so steht es im Buch, wo der Präfix nur den Anfang einer Rede markiert. Die Zuordnung ist eine Folgerung dieser Ausgabe. Namen in Klammern sind aus dem Text erschlossen: sicher belegt sind SM = Mary, SF = Fred, SJ = Jay, SC = Nate, wahrscheinlich SG = Glen, SR = Jorge. Alle anderen Kürzel bleiben stehen, weil der Beleg nicht trägt.