– Transcript 159
R: Hi Gang. It’s good to see you again, as always. I love each one of you just the way you are. Forget about your past. It is only real if you think about it. You are complete freedom, total bliss. Many of you believe you are bound, bound to past experiences, bound to your karma, bound to wealth or poverty, bound to health or sickness, bound to misery or happiness. These external things are all bondage. But the truth is that you are knowingly steeped in consciousness, which is the truth you’ve been seeking.
When you go through many experiences, you start to seek the teacher or guru who can free you, who can give you liberation, who can do something for you. It may appear to take many incarnations to come to that place, where you begin to seek a teacher of some kind, who can make you totally free of this world, and this universe. But again the ultimate truth is you’re already free. You are that consciousness which is the reality; the reality you’ve been searching for, the reality that you think evades you. You are that right now.
When I say you are pure consciousness, what do I mean? Consciousness is a power that is conscious of itself. Consciousness is conscious of itself as absolute reality, as effortless pure awareness. It is all pervading, takes up all of space, and that’s what you are.
You are steeped in it. You are nothing else but that. Everything else is an illusion, everything. Everything you’ve been searching for, everything you’re looking for, all of your hurts, all of your fears, all the things that make you sad, do not exist. Yet somehow they appear to exist because you feel these things.
Yet going through these experiences myself, when I was a little kid, and transcending them, I can assure you they do not exist. The world does not exist, as it appears.
The universe does not exist as it appears. God does not exist as you think he does, or she does or it does. Your body does not exist as you think it is, as it appears. Your thoughts and your mind do not exist. You are absolute reality, total freedom, bliss. There is nothing to search for any longer. You have come into your own. You are totally free right now.
Doesn’t it feel good? Doesn’t it feel good? (laughter)
SH: It sure does. (R: Some of you look at me sort of funny.) (laughter) Do you need confirmation? (laughs) (R: Sure. I don’t know. You have to tell me.) It’s okay. (laughs) (Robert continues) There is only the one. There are not two, or three, or four or five. There is one. You are that one. You have always been that one. No matter what you do, you will still be that one.You always have to think. Why do you have to think? You think you have to think, yet there is no thinker. You think you have to know, yet there is no knower. You think you have to be. There is no being. There just is, and you are that is-ness.
When you admit that you are that power, nothing can hurt you any longer. When you accept that you are the one, no harm can ever come to you. When you admit you are that pure consciousness, that is like having an entire army on your side, an army of angels, so-to-speak, protecting you, guiding you, directing you, leading you towards the goal, whatever that may be, if there is any such thing. (laughter) We all want goals. How can there be a goal if you’re already that? But yet you want to say to yourself, “Day by day, in every way, I’m getting better and better.” (students laugh) The day never comes because you are putting it off into the future. The fellow who did this, made up that statement I think, was Emile Coue. I remember that from years back. He never told you how many people were cured or healed because of saying this.
SH: My mother used to do it for hours on end. She used to repeat that, repeat it, repeat it.
R: Did anything ever happen?
Glen (SG): She had Henry. (laughter)
SH: Not a damn thing. (laughter)
R: She got worse when you came along?
SH: Well perhaps I had my days. (laughs)
(Robert continues) But there is no power that is going to make you better, or give you more happiness, or bring you joy in abundance and love. Where would this come from? There would have to be some type of entity there, making it happen.
Oh it helps, of course, if you want to blame God, or give God credit. It makes you feel less guilty. But when you begin to understand there is no God to turn to, it becomes a little scary to some of you, doesn’t it? For all these years you’ve been turning to some kind of God, and it did bring you more peace. Actually what really happens is you brought the peace to yourself. Peace is your very nature. You are peaceful. So because your belief system believes in a God someplace, naturally you’re going to feel much better when you pray to this God, because you empty yourself out of all this stuff that’s been inside of you.
You pray it all out. So this is good for many people. There’s nothing wrong with this.
But as we mature, as we grow up spiritually, we begin to know that there is only that which always was. There is only that, which is. There is only that, period, nothing else. What is That? There is no explanation.
Again, the finite can never understand the infinite. It is virtually impossible for the finite to understand the infinite. What then can be said? Should I go on preaching for two or three hours, and tell you all kind of nice things, to make you feel good? Then when you walk out this door all the misery returns to you, all the stuff you’ve been thinking and feeling, the fears, frustrations. You have to sort of grow up, and admit to yourself, I am that.
When you realize that you are That, without trying to explain to yourself what That is, you become a powerhouse, for all the energy in the universe functions through you, as you. You become the essence of all things. The whole universe hastens to you, for you are that.
It is sometimes sort of difficult to understand how can you be the essence of everything and yet feel that you are an individual. And some of you really feel your individuality. You really feel it deep inside. You feel deep frustrations, or deep fears, or some kind of bodily signs that make you feel miserable. These things cannot exist when you understand the truth we’re talking about. The substratum of your existence is consciousness, and consciousness is like a chalkboard. All the trees, the mountains, the beauty, the ugliness, everything is an image on the chalkboard. The images just keep changing, just as when you erase the images on the chalkboard, and put new images on the chalkboard. Yet the chalkboard always stays the same. The chalkboard never changes.
This is why I can truthfully tell you that you are the universe. For the whole universe, including your body, that’s the hard part, sometimes you may admit that the whole universe is within you, but you still think you’re a body, but I’m saying to you the whole universe, including your body, is simply a superimposition on the chalkboard, or on the Self. Imagine that. Everything that exists, that appears to exist, is an image on the Self, and you are the Self.
The way people come into this teaching, into this consciousness, the way people awaken to this truth, is by not trying to analyze it. You can ponder this. This is true. You can ponder the fact that you are like a chalkboard, and your body and all the images of this universe are superimposed on the chalkboard, on consciousness. But do not try to figure it out. Do not try to analyze it. Why? You are using your finite mind. Remember you cannot use your finite mind to try to understand the infinite?
So many times the great minds come along, the pundits who try to analyze it, and break it down, and prove it, and come to conclusions, never get anywhere. This is why it is written in most scriptures of the world, you have to become like a new born babe to know the truth. Why? Because a new born babe does not think. There are no thoughts to stupefy it, make it impure.
Most of you are afraid to stop thinking. You believe some evil spirits will come in and get you. You believe that you will become like a log, just become dumb, vegetate. This is far from the truth. There have been so few people who have awakened, who have become pure, who have become self-realized, and these people keep to themselves in most instances. You never hear of many of them. There’s no one to confirm this for you, just crazy old me, telling you these things. So you’re afraid to let go, for you do not know what will happen if you let go.
I heard people tell me this. “Yes, Robert, I am afraid to let go because when I let go I might lose interest in my job, I might lose interest in my family, I might lose interest in the things I like or the things I love to do, I might become a vegetable.” Nothing can be further from the truth. When you let go completely, when you surrender totally to your self, and you stop trying to analyze things, and figure things out for yourself, you stop trying to use your brain, your mind, to come to any conclusions, what we call the self takes its place, for there’s only the Self and the images. There’s nothing else. There’s nothing in between. There is no purgatory. There’s no space in between the self and you, what appears to be you. There is only the Self, or consciousness.
But what you’re doing is you’re thinking that consciousness, or your self, is your body. Just the mistake you’re making. When you let go of the body idea, the self shines in all its splendor and glory, all by itself. There are no stages you go through. There are no stages {as} you go from one to the other. You are either one or the other, and the so called stages that you think you go through, are simply part of the other.
This is what it means, again, in the scriptures, “Whom shall I follow this day, God or mammon?” Mammon is the relative world, including your body. God is consciousness, the Self. Yet you have to make up your mind whom to follow. You have that freedom. You have that freedom to accept the truth for yourself, to accept your reality. But if you go around worrying, and hurrying, and fearing, and fretting, and complaining, and thinking something is holding you back, analyzing your dreams, practicing all kinds of occult things, you are creating further illusions for yourself. You are doing this all to yourself.
Try to remember what I’m saying to you. There is only one or the other. There are not three planes of existence, or four planes of existence, or things you have to overcome, or things you have to transcend or transmute. All this is nonsense. There is only God or mammon, the Self or the world. Take your choice. You are free to take your choice.
Again let me assure you that there is absolutely nothing to worry about. You will never become a vegetable. You will never have the urge to go to a cave, and give up your family and your job, or anything else, unless this is what you were meant to do in the beginning. If you were meant to do this in the beginning, you would have already done it.
In other words, what I’m trying to say, when you come into your Self, the real Self, there is no real vast change in your life. This is important to understand. Most people believe when they turn into the Self, they become liberated, then they become a saint of some sort, and they’re walking on cloud nine, they can walk through fire, they will not drown in the ocean, they can jump off bridges and fly. This happens when you take LSD, (laughter) not when you become self-realized.
When you awaken, you appear the same as you are right now, only you’re totally free. That’s all. You’re completely, totally free. Your people will still see you the same way you are now. They will not see any difference. If they stay with you twenty-four hours a day, they will notice you do not react to things any longer. They will notice you’ve become an embodiment of peace, that you’re always happy, nothing disturbs you. But you will still have the same body, so-to-speak, until it’s time to drop it. There’s absolutely nothing to be afraid of. It’s a wonderful experience. Why not do it? I’ve taken away all of the fears from
you, all the frustrations, and you know nothing strange is going to happen. So drop it right now. Become free, liberated. Let go.
Are you letting go? (laughter) By the expression of some of you, you’re holding on for dear life. (laughter) What are you holding on to? I suppose it’s a little difficult to let go completely, if you ever want to. Remember it’s taken you so many incarnations to be what you are now. To have the kind of body that you’re wearing right now, did not come easily.
It didn’t happen. You have to have sort of worked for it. It is a body that you have earned, so-to-speak, if that’s what you want to believe, and it’s taken you many incarnations to get this body. Therefore you are afraid to give it up. That’s why you are afraid to give it up.
It’s like owning a blouse or a shirt for thirty, forty, fifty years. You’ve gotten so used to it. Even though it seems to be wearing out, fading away, you still have the desire to hold on to it. Then someone has to grab it away from you, and throw it in the garbage.
SH: That’s your job. (laughter)
R: That’s what I’m doing.
And then you may cry a little bit, “My favorite shirt, my favorite blouse, is gone,”
but you got over it. Soon there are new shirts, new blouses, and the old is disregarded and finished. So it is with the body, with the thoughts, with the mind, with your experiences, with all the stuff that you’re made out of. You’re afraid to let go of all this stuff, for you have carried it around for a long time. And I come along and say, “Drop it.” In one way you say, “I want to drop it,” and in another way you’re afraid to drop it, for as I said before, your mind keeps telling you, “Don’t drop it. This will happen. That will happen. You’ll become a vegetable. You won’t have any interest in work. You’ll want to give up all of your pleasures.”
Your mind plays these games with you. Your mind tells you all these things.
So this is where sadhana comes in. Now you know the reason we do sadhana.
Sadhana simply makes you strong, mentally, physically, to be able to let go. That’s all sadhana does. Sadhana never enlightens you. It makes you one-pointed, in your quest for realization. It makes you compassionate. It develops humility, power. It transcends all fear.
And when you finally get to that point, the inner guru grabs a hold of your mind, yanks it into the heart, and you become liberated.
But until you become strong enough for this to happen, you will remain as you are. That’s why this is like, there are Sunday drivers, there are certain people who come here, just like Sunday drivers. They listen to what I say. Sounds good, good talk. They go home and share the talk, but they keep on living the same old way. They do not drop anything. They just keep adding on. Just like having an overflowing garbage pail. They keep putting more garbage in, more garbage in. It can’t hold any more. They keep pressing it down, putting more garbage in. (laughter)
This is what some of us do. We add on to what we already learned, more sadhana, more teachings. We run to teachers all over the world, looking to add on to ourselves, more, and more, and more, when I keep telling you, you don’t want to add on, you want to empty. Therefore why do you need more books? Why do you need more teachers? You want to empty what you’ve learned, become totally empty, free. Then something will happen.
This is the reason I tell you once in a while, you have to be completely and totally honest with yourself. Do not fool yourself. Look at yourself and see the way you are. See what you do all day long, the way you react to things. Do not ignore these things. Do not imagine they do not exist. If you have a bad temper, if you become angry a lot, if you’re always trying to change things so they’ll go your way, those are the very things that are holding you back. Those are the very things you have to get rid of. You have to get to the place where you have no opinions for or against.
Again, that’s a sort of heavy one too, for you’re saying to yourself, “How can I go through life if I have no opinion for or against?” And I try to explain to you all the time, there is something within you, that will take over, and lead you toward right action. You will do the right thing. When your mind stops functioning and becomes passive, what we call the consciousness, or the Self, takes over immediately, and all will go well with you.
But if you begin to analyze this, saying, “All going well with me means I’ll have this, and I’ll have that, and I’ll be this way, and I’ll be that way,” that’s where you spoil it. Remember the finite can never comprehend the infinite, so if you start outlining in yourself how things will be when things get better for you, you’re making a grave mistake. Leave it alone.
Again, this is what it means in the scriptures when it says, “Let go, and let God,” as it were. Get yourself out of the way. Allow those divine circuits to start working for you.
You are your worst enemy, simply because you’re holding on to all kinds of thoughts, and preconceived ideas, and concepts, and all kinds of stuff that has hurt you in the past.
Let go. Give up. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. And that is all I have to say. Feel free to befuddle me with your questions. (students laugh)
Fred (SF): I have a question. On Sunday I talked a little bit about…in as much as, reality consists of nothing, of no thing. In the so-called dream state during the deep sleep, a dream arises out of nothing, out of that it is witnessed and it goes back there. The same is true I suspect with a hallucination. And you agreed with that to a large extent. And afterward I asked you something about, we awake from the deep sleep state into the waking state, which is no more real or no less real than the so-called dream we had or the hallucination we might have experienced. When I mentioned that you made a remark of something but I can’t remember what it was, do you recall that by chance? (R: No.) Do you have any comment on what I said?
R: What you’re are saying is correct. (SF: That’s good thank you. That is all I need to know.) The dream state, the waking state, hallucination state are all the same. You’re hallucinating right now. You better see a doctor. (students laugh) (SF: Okay.) But you are correct.
Fred (SF): One other thing, at the risk of bringing down the wrath of God and his company. I’m going to quote some scripture and I’m going to interpret it. I want to see if my interpretation is right. If it is that will make me feel good. If it’s wrong correct me. Anyway St. Paul in one of his
letters said, “Though I speak of the tongues of men and of angels and have not love then I become a sounding brass and repeating cymbal. And though I have to give to prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.”
Now what that seems to mean to me, in the first part where he is talking and he’s so eloquent has all these beautiful ideas. If he feels that he is separate from the person or people that he is talking to, he is separating himself from his own creation. In other words the difference between the speaker and the hearer. And in the other part where he has these siddhis and visions and all that stuff, again he is separate from his own creation without love. Love is one with creation. Without love there is separation when in actuality there isn’t. It’s all one. If we accept the idea intellectually that there is one. I guess in this stage we know what is happening, we deal with words and concepts. So I have to work on it. But if without love is nothing he is setting himself apart from creation. Want to comment on that?
R: The first thing I would ask him is, “St. Paul what do you mean by love?” (SF: Love is no separation. Love is the opposite that is separation.) This is true. Therefore what he means is, if he is infinite consciousness, the Self, which is love. Then he is the Master of all this universe. (SF: Like you’ve been talking about.) Exactly. But if he doesn’t have this feeling, this understanding, this realization then he is nothing. So the word love is synonymous with the Self or absolute reality or pure awareness. (SF: God?) God. That is a good interpretation. (SF: Thank you sir.) SR: I want to thank you tonight Robert for all the work you did in helping all of us. We particularly appreciate your efforts to help us let go of fears of letting go. I realize that you spoke that, you’ve said it before but I realize that I needed to hear it again. Nerada taught me to let go of layers of fear but as we get close the old questions come up even though you’ve already answered them before. And it’s like when you review it then the fear subsides again and it’s just wonderful to hear those assurances. Like it seems like you know what all of us need or maybe it’s a universal condition. I really appreciate your sensitivity and your empathy for us as we grovel on the ground.
(students laugh) Is what I’m saying sound way off the mark? (R: No I understand what you’re talking about, I appreciate what you’re talking about.) I had an experience this morning that may help others in case they haven’t noticed the I in their own life. I was involved with a professional this morning that had a lot of power over me and yet he was trying to order me to do something that was wrong in my mind. And I didn’t know whether to lie to him and say, “Yea, yea, I’ll do it,” or fight with him and cause him to be upset in our working relationship for the rest of the few hours. And that would make me scared of the kind of emotions we’d be putting into the work.
Somehow something happened and I just was able to give him an analogy of what he was doing to me by telling about a story of a man doing something to another person. And it helped him to empathize with what I was going through while he was putting me through this rigor of trying to force his will on mine. And somehow he caught it. And his gentleness came out, his aggressiveness subsided and I felt this tremendous relief inside that I had been true to myself and yet gentle with him. Maybe that’s a quality that everyone else in this room already has but I don’t. And so to be able to be honest and gentle, lovingly gentle and honest or candid at the same time. It had a tremendous release in me and immediately I noticed I was feeling the light and the inner energy much stronger for hours. And I think it’s been with me throughout the day so that I’ve been much more receptive to you. The energy that you carry around today. So your speech tonight just sunk in deeper than usual because of my having been open, more so today.
I am seeing the value of honesty and am looking at all the other lies in my life that I can open up by honest acts, you know the real tough ones. And I guess as I see that as an aid to becoming more receptive to your energy which I guess is the energy of integrity, I guess I feel like saying it in case there is one other person in this room here tonight…
SU: I think you speak well for most of us. (SH: Very well put.) R: It is very good Jorge. (SK: Robert?) Well let me finish with Jorge. The first part of your question or statement I should say, when I repeat everything and you finally get it, is like the sun and the fruit. When the fruit begins to grow it needs sun. And the more sun it gets the larger it grows. Until it comes to fruition. So the sun has to come up everyday and do the same thing. To shine on that fruit. If the sun stops shining on the fruit the fruit will cease growing and die. So the sun has to repeat itself day after day after day.
So somehow I’m like the sun and you are the fruit. As you keep surrendering and listening and listening, surrendering and listening to the same things I say, sometimes repetitively. The day comes when you become ripe and you fall off the tree. So Jorge any day now you’re going to fall off the tree. (laughter)
Jorge (SR): Robert there were quite a few moments when you were pushing the “I am that” idea, I was actually starting to feel that “I am that” for the first time. But then the I-thought would come back, so I said we better not play a trick on ourselves and think that we really believe that “I am that.” Better keep shoveling out the I-thought here. So that is where we were tonight. We were like “I am that,” and shoveling out the I-thought, “I am that,” then shoveling off the I-thought, “I am that.” And if you have any words of wisdom on that, at that state, feel free.
R: “I am That.” That’s it. You’re doing very well Jorge. John were you going to say something?
Jay (SJ): I’m sorry for interrupting but… (R: That’s okay, speak.) (response tape unclear) SG: Robert when you were speaking of letting go tonight, from my own personal experience, there was a time when I was very close to passing and if I had listened to the doctors and I had believed my mind and believed the appearance of the body I would have passed. I had to take conscious control of my mind and fill it with every single word of truth that I could muster, that was standing on the word God. It literally was praying without ceasing. And if I would’ve let go, there was no way, I would have passed. And I would pass in pain and the fear of this body, by taking conscious control of my mind I was able to come out of it. So to say let go, I can’t. At that particular instant, to me letting go would’ve been unthinkable.
R: You don’t know that. That is what you imagine. What you did, that was on the mental plane. And that is good enough. It helped because you’re still with us, but then if you let go you have no idea what would have happened. (SG: I wouldn’t be here.) You don’t
know. (SG: Well the way that it… I followed my heart it didn’t stop, there was no way I could have.) No on the contrary, you have no idea. Perhaps if you let go, something would’ve come in, the Self and you would’ve been healed immediately. There is no telling. But you worked on the mental plane and that was necessary because you did it. Remember everything is preordained.
Glen (SG): Well I’ve seen many people who have let go or who have allowed things to be and do this path, with a past of pain, apparent pain or fear or whatever. So when you say whatever occurred it’s hard to believe that.
R: Well they’re not letting go, the people you are referring to are not letting go…
SD: They’re giving up, aren’t they?
R: They’re giving up, they’re reverting to their fears. Once you let go there is no fear. What I’m referring to is love. Total bliss. That is the letting I’m referring to, not fear.
Not giving up. There is a difference.
Fred (SF): They’re under the assumption that it’s better to stay in the body?
R: That’s true also.
Glen (SG): Well that isn’t necessarily true but I do believe that if you pass without a consciousness in passing you’re in the illusion. I mean you get into a whole process, if you don’t awake before you die, you die! And go through with reincarnation. That is my belief. (R: But you’re talking as if you have something to do with it. It has nothing to do with you.) But Robert the point is I don’t want to get into a philosophical discussion I’m just trying to understand about letting go. (R: Umm.) So letting go, unless you fill your mind say with love or fear, you will be letting go into the world mind…
R: You’re right when you say that, but I’m referring to a person who works on themselves and then they let go. Remember at the beginning of the lesson I was talking about the things you have to do before you let go? When you finally let go after you’re evolved to the point where you let go, then there is only the Self. There is only bliss. (SG: So in truth there is work to do. You can’t just tell anybody to let go?) I’m not speaking to the average person. (SG: So…) The average person doesn’t know how to let go. Because you are right they will let go and they will feel fear. They will feel that they’re alone. They will fear all kinds of things. So I wouldn’t tell the average person to let go. I would never tell them to fill their mind with anything either. I would let nature take care of everything.
There is something within you that tells you what to do and knows what to do. And the whole idea is to trust that something. To surrender to that something. Then you will let go and be at peace.
Jorge (SR): I know the other lie in my life. I feel like just announcing it and then maybe I’ll be ready. (R: Okay.) The other lie in my life is… when I turned fifty I said, I told my mother, I think I won’t bother explaining my personal life and life with women any more I’ll just say my wife died and I’m a widower. It makes life easier having to…you don’t have to explain in detail so much. So I think what I’ll announce tonight is I’ve been married twice and divorced twice. And the space in between I’ve had a lot of failed experiences with women that an adult could handle more capably than a teenager. And that is it, that is something that I don’t feel like having every person that questions me go into details about so I just cover it up and say, “I’m a widower,” and I think at my age now I can get away with that.
Why bother explaining all the things I did in my forties and thirties, whatever, even though there were some great experiences. It just makes life easy but I realize it’s living a lie if I’m saying it out of shame or a lack of fear or fear of rejection. I think it started from the fear of rejection.
Oh God this guy’s been married twice, he’s no good obviously and I think it was a fear of rejection and shame because I didn’t grow up in a culture that favored that. So I’m practicing honesty tonight with about twenty people and hope that see if we can get the big bang going again.(laughter) R: Thank you Jorge. Also to further answer your question Steve if you’ve read a lot of Ramana Maharshi you will see when he had his experiences when he was 16 years old.
He crossed his hands on his chest and was about to die. He let go completely and he watched. He watched his body dying. But it was not time for him to die. So he came back as a witness. And his whole life was available to us because of that incident. So there is further proof that if you let go you will not necessarily die.
SH: But you might die and that will be okay too?
R: That’s okay too, right, of course. Just as if you fill up your mind with all kinds of truths and still die.
SI: How old was he then? (R: Sixteen.)
SL: How old was he when he died? (R: About eighty. Eighty, seventy nine or eighty.) So all the teaching came after that time? (R: Yes.) After sixteen? (R: At sixteen.) SX: Robert many of the Saints and teachers whose lives I’ve read have experienced enormous pain or suffering in their lives or near death experience. Would you comment on that? Transform it into something I can understand?
R: Sure, this is what we observe. And this is what we see. Yet if you ask Rama Krishna or Ramana Maharshi if they suffered they would say no. No one suffers because they were not the body. Yet the body appears evident to us as being real. But there is no body. It’s all part of the relative world. It appears real but it’s not. Therefore when we observe this, we have to ask ourselves, “Who sees this? Who feels this?” And you will realize that it’s the ego. It goes through the experience of seeing somebody die. But there is no suffering or death in reality.
SH: Nisargadatta Maharaj when he was dying of cancer or his body was dying of cancer was asked if he was suffering and his answer to that was, “There is great pain.” There was nobody suffering but there was great pain. (R: He felt pain, yes.) He didn’t…“there was great pain,” was his exact answer. (R: But he was not the pain?) No. But pain was there.
R: True. That is something sort of difficult to look at. So it’s difficult to understand.
That there is pain. There is no identification with the body. (SH: So he had absolutely no pain?) Umm. (SH: He was the witness of the pain?) Yes. (SH: Completely free of it.) SG: He felt the pain, he just… (SH: He didn’t. There was nobody there to feel the pain.)
R: There was no one left to feel the pain. (SG: Pardon me?) There was no one left to feel the pain. There was just pain. (SG: Yeah I understand it but I don’t get it.) SX: But is that experience of a near death or of a loss of a loved one sort of a non-attachment or an experience of loss included into that sense of non-attachment?
R: It’s more than non-attachment. They have totally transcended the body experience. There is no body, so there is no suffering for them. Yet the pain appears to be there but it’s not their pain, it’s impersonal.
SX: Say for example, Sir Francis when he was in his early twenties and before he grasped the world, when he had a very long illness. (R: Umm.) It was very severe… (R: Umm.) That kind of thing changed the rest of his life and with that it was as if his life was going to be taken away but yet was not. And yet he felt the sun and regained his vision and renounced the world. That kind of near loss was that a deepening of a realization that it is not real and it doesn’t belong to you and you’re free to let go?
R: Exactly. It was similar to what Ramana Maharshi experienced. But he wasn’t suffering, he just thought he was dying. And he said to himself, “So this is what happens when you die?” But he never died. He just died to his body. But it’s the same for St. Francis and everybody else. There is no difference it’s always the same.
SX: What advice would you give to someone who has terrible cancer pain? If you were to have just a few words to try to get through to them? (laughter) R: It depends. It depends on the person. I would have a lot of compassion, a lot of love, I would just be there. And not give any advice whatsoever. Just being there and holding their hand is sufficient. No words may be exchanged.
(Robert turns to Mary) Would you read the Jnani? (SM: Yes.) (Mary reads the Jnani. Refer to page 5 in this book.)
R: Thank you Mary we’ve got some beautiful prashad to eat. Feel free to enjoy yourself. (Opens and gives prashad out) We’ve got fruit.
Remember to love yourself, to pray to yourself, to worship yourself because why?
SV: Your words are always in me. (laughter)
R: God dwells in you as you. Peace.
(tape ends)
Absätze ohne Sprecherpräfix gehören dem zuletzt genannten Sprecher — so steht es im Buch, wo der Präfix nur den Anfang einer Rede markiert. Die Zuordnung ist eine Folgerung dieser Ausgabe. Namen in Klammern sind aus dem Text erschlossen: sicher belegt sind SM = Mary, SF = Fred, SJ = Jay, SC = Nate, wahrscheinlich SG = Glen, SR = Jorge. Alle anderen Kürzel bleiben stehen, weil der Beleg nicht trägt.