– Transcript 59
and Humility
R: Good afternoon. I welcome you with all my heart. I see a couple of new faces here. If you’ve come to hear a speech or a lecture forget it. I do not give lectures nor do I make speeches. I speak nonsense, no sense. It has nothing to do with your senses so it’s nonsense.
For instance: I say to you your true nature is absolute reality. You are pure awareness. You are Sat-Chit-Ananda. You are ultimate oneness.
Does that make sense to some of you? It’s nonsense because you identify with the body-mind phenomena and you believe you are your experiences. You live your experiences, your thoughts about the body, the world, the mind. And you are always thinking, thinking, thinking that you’ve been hurt, you’ve been slandered, something is wrong. You watch the news on the TV, you hear the radio and you identify with all the wrongs of the world and then you feel out of sorts. That’s nonsense, none of that exists. Only absolute reality exists and you are that.
So to put ourselves in the mood, take out your song sheet. And we shall sing “Joy to God.”
(song is sung)
Again, I welcome with all my heart, good afternoon. And let me reiterate during the course of the talk you’ll hear me speaking nonsense.
I don’t make any sense to a sense bound person. Most people are bound by their senses. They can only understand what they read in the paper, what they watch on TV.
When I try to express the truth, that you are not the body and you are not the mind, you look at me as if I’m crazy. Of course I am crazy so you can look at me any way you like.
But my experience has been that there is no body, there is no mind, there is no universe, there is no God, there is no person, there is no experience, there is only consciousness and you are that. Not the you that thinks that they’re the ego, but the real you.
The real you is divine, absolute reality, nirvana, total emptiness. This is the real you. When you get a glimpse of what you really are you have unalloyed happiness, total joy, bliss.
And then you begin to see your fellow man, the world the universe as yourself.
So, if you want to change the world. If you want to make this world a better place in which to live. If you want to obliterate mans inhumanity to man. Know yourself. For your real Self is all pervading, it’s omnipresent. When you know your real Self you are no longer hurtable and the whole universe becomes you. So when you become a semblance of peace, an embodiment of peace in realization, so does the whole universe, even though there appears to be something else in the world. But it’s only an appearance, like the water in the mirage. Like the sky is blue, like the snake in the rope. Those are appearances.
In the same way your body, your experiences, your thoughts are appearances, they’re not you. You are free from all that, rejoice. You are more wonderful than you can ever imagine. For you there is no birth and no death. For you there is no substance in reality, as you call it. Reality, I mean your experiences in your body, your reality with a small “r”. That reality has no substance, there is no ego sustaining it. Your period from birth to death doesn’t even exist. It appears to exist and it’s the appearance that gets you in trouble.
I always take a walk in the park in the morning. I met an interesting lady this morning that I’ve spoken to on numerous occasions. She is a devotee of Nisargadatta Maharaj. And we had quite an illuminating talk, which I would like to share with you. She asked me three basic questions.
The first one was: “Robert, I have been meditating now for 25 years. The last 10
years in accordance with Nisargadattas’ teachings and I believe I’m self-realized.” And usually I say, “That’s nice.” And she went on to explain that there is a question I want to ask you, “I have a heart condition and my doctor tells me I might need a heart transplant in a couple of years. So can a self-realized person like me pray to God to bring me relief in this condition?”
I didn’t say anything for a couple of minutes and then I asked her, what do you mean by God? If God was somewhere outside of you, if God was somewhere in the sky. If there were two of you, yourself and God, then I can see you praying to God. But you told me you were self-realized. A self-realized being is all pervading. There is no room for God and you. There cannot be duality if you claim to be self-realized and again if you were really liberated there would be no one left to tell. So you couldn’t come up to me with that question or it would become redundant and ask me if I can pray to God but I’m self-realized. There is no one to be self-realized. That word doesn’t even exist. There is no such a being, as a self-realized being.
Obviously what you are referring to is a being in the natural state. A being in their natural state is omnipresent. You would not concern yourself with your body. It may appear as if you have a bad heart but to whom is that appearance? Not to your liberated Self.
It is your ego, your personal I that believes that they’ve got a bad heart. And you are identifying with that. So how can you say you’re liberated? If you were liberated, again you would not be concerned with your body. There would be no one left to pray to any living God. Your body goes through the karma it came to this earth to experience. And your body doesn’t even exist. Let alone have a heart attack. Why do you worry about your body, why are you so concerned about your body? You must believe that you are your body.
And so it is with reality. So it is with pure awareness. Pure awareness is your true nature.
Consciousness is what you are. Your so called body, with it’s bad heart is a superimposition on consciousness. In other words you have nothing to do with your body, it’ll take care of itself.
She remained quiet for about three minutes. Then she said to me, “Robert obviously I am not a Jnani. So I must be a Bhakta. Being a bhakta, can I now pray to God for relief from these symptoms?” And I said, “Tell me how you pray?” And she said I pray something like this, “Oh God kindly relieve this burden that I’ve got. Kindly heal me from this burden of a heart problem. And while you are about it I’ve got some financial problems also, so see if you can straighten those out for me.” (students laugh) Again I didn’t say anything for a couple of minutes. Then I said, “My dear you are also not a bhakta.
(students laugh) A bhakta means absolute devotion. If you were a bhakta you would have surrendered yourself to your God totally and completely. You would have become a puppet in God’s hands. Not my will but thine. And however you are you would be happy. For you would have no body of your own to be sick. Your body has been surrendered to God.
Your life has been surrendered to God. Your words, your thoughts are Gods. Therefore you would always be happy. You wouldn’t even think about your bad heart, for that’s God’s business not you, not yours.”
So she asked me then, “What is the correct way to pray if I’m a bhakta? And I answered, “The first statement you made, Oh God, that’s it. Nothing else to say. Oh God says it all. For is not God all pervading, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent? Don’t you know that your God knows your problem? You don’t have to explain it to him. You simply have to say, “God,” and that’s enough. For the omnipresent God knows how to take care of you.
Knows how to look after you in his own inimitable way. You have nothing to do with these things if you are a bhakta. You simply give it all to God and you are free. There is nothing for you to do. You will be told what to do. Everything will come through you when your mind is at peace and you have no concern. After all, all is well and everything is unfolding as it should. When you speak of your heart condition or your finances or whatever, it’s like looking through a keyhole and seeing one part of the picture. If you open the door and saw the beginning and the end, you would rejoice. For you’re seeing only the part where your heart is bad. Take your mind off those things.
So she exclaimed, “You mean I shouldn’t take my medicine and I shouldn’t go see my doctor? And I said, “On the contrary, do what you have to do but do not concern yourself. Try to understand that you are not the doer. You are not the doer. Exercise, take your medication, eat well, do whatever you have to do but do not keep your mind on those things. Keep your mind centered on God.
She asked, “How should I do that?” I said, “Say to yourself with your respiration, “I Am.” Inhale say, “I,” exhale say, “Am.” That is invoking the name of God. That is doing Japa. Speaking Gods name over and over again. Instead of thinking about your troubles, instead of concerning yourself about your heart, surrender it all to God. By invoking his name, I Am, and you will be free.”
The third question she asked, “What you’ve told me Robert brings me a new revelation, but I have to ask you this. For twenty-five years I’ve been on a spiritual path and as I told you the last ten years was spent, some of it in India with Nisargadatta Maharaj and yet I’ve seemed to have gotten nowhere. I do not seem to be making progress. What else must I do to awaken? I thought I was doing everything I’m supposed to do. But apparently I’m not. Can you please reveal to me or tell me what other sadhana I should practice in order to awaken in this life?
We will spend the rest of the time going over this.
To begin with, I usually do not recommend books. As a matter of fact as most of you know I tell you not to read at all. But Jeff gave me this book a week ago. No mind, I am the Self, by David Gardener. It’s about the life of Shri Lakshmana and one of his female devotees. I didn’t recognize him in the beginning, but when I looked at the pictures like I usually do, when he was a young fellow, he was at Ramana ashram when I was there, when I was eighteen years old. He had a different name at the time, I recall him. He had a very bad temper as I recall and he always wanted to go and see Ramana when he was resting. Ramana’s attendants did not allow him to come in. They always had big heated arguments. They were speaking in Tamil so I didn’t understand what they were saying.
But a couple of times the guards or the attendants literally picked him up and took him away. But now he’s a self-realized being. Which is very interesting, so I would suggest that you buy this book. It’s probably at the Bodhi tree, and read it for yourself. It answers all your questions.
To answer the question the lady gave or a part of it. I just glanced through the book, I haven’t even read it myself yet, I came across this paragraph, Mary if you would read this?
Mary (SM): Sure. (R: Just these two paragraphs from here to here. Listen to this very closely.) (Mary starts reading and is interrupted) Bliss is all…
R: Excuse me. This is what his disciple the girl who he adopted as a teenager. And she stayed with him for four years and became self-realized. This is what she is saying.
Mary… (Mary reads)
“Bliss is always flowing from swami, but it depends on the maturity of the disciple how much is received. The more one is free from thought the more one will receive that force. Each devotee will receive grace in proportion to the amount of faith he has. How to get the grace of the guru, devotion in past lives is important. And in the present life one must always be engaged in spiritual
R: Thank you.
Mary (SM): Thank you Robert.
R: Many people in the West have been told that they do not need a teacher of any kind. Many of us have read Krishnamurti who denounces spiritual Masters. Now why does he do this. When he was a theosophist and Amy Besant and Judge Leadbetter got a hold of him, when he was about 18 years old. He had some very unpleasant experiences with them. These experiences have not been written about. But because of the carryings on of Judge Leadbetter and Amy Besant he became disillusioned with every leading Sage. Yet prior to his eighteen years old he had many Masters himself. It is only in his later years that he renounced all his teachers.
It is interesting to note that just about all of the disciples of Krishnamurti are intellectuals. I have to say that not even one has awakened. I love Krishnamurti, he was a great spiritual philosopher but we’re talking here about awakening. We’re not talking about memorizing scripture, philosophy, knowing intellectually many of the Advaita Vedanta texts. We’re speaking of waking up, liberation, Moksha. The truth is you can only go by yourself so far and then you have to depend on either the guru within yourself or the guru outside yourself. Do not be misled. There are very few beings on this earth who awaken by themselves. I would say a half a percent out of a hundred billion people awaken by themselves. Most of us need a living presence whose grace we can absorb in order to become totally free. This is why all great Sages have taught God, guru and the Self are one.
There is no difference.
This is why I tell you so many times, do not come here and listen to my words.
Words alone will not do it. Like the lady in the park, she has been listening to words and can recite all these words backwards and frontwards. Yet she is about 68 years old and she claims she hasn’t made progress. If she had a teacher to confide in. The teacher would tell her the progress she’s made. For you cannot know yourself. It’s virtually impossible to know yourself, the progress you are making on the path. For you are dealing with your ego and your ego will fool you. It will make you believe all kinds of things.
The question she asked again is, “What else must I do to awaken?” And I explained these things to her, “You have to be yourself. You have to develop humility, that’s first. By your talking to me I said to her I can see you’ve got a lot of arrogance, a lot of hostility.” And she started telling me about her life, her parents abused her and whatever.
So I explained to her that’s all well and good, there are millions of people like yourself, but the time comes when you have to grow up and let go of the aggressiveness, the arrogance.You have to develop gentleness, humility. You have to begin to trust others even though some have hurt you, it makes no difference.
As I told you before, if you remember your divine nature, if you keep your mind on god, you can never be hurtable. Someone may abuse you, they may cheat you, they may do all kinds of things to you but what can they actually do to you? Who has been hurt? Have you been hurt? If you believe you are your ego, then you have, because your ego is always hurt. It always wants revenge. It always wants to get even. And the ego has stored in it’s subconscious mind many, many, many, many horrible things that it’s gone through from past lives and also this life. Things that you appear to have forgotten consciously, but every time you act, you bring it up.
So for you I told her. You have to pray to God, “God you are omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. You know what I need. I throw myself at you, body, mind and soul. I have no desires, I have no needs no wants, do with me as you will.” And that is exactly what you must do. You must become desireless, even toward self-realization. Forget about awakening. Forget about Moksha, liberation.
Look at yourself. You exist don’t you? Why don’t you find out who exists? Ask yourself, “Who exists?” And the answer will come to you, “I exist.” All you have to do is to find the source of the I. Find the source of the I by following the I thread to the heart.
Which is on the right side of the chest. Forget about the chakras, forget about all the kundalini business you’ve learnt, forget about all the yoga you’ve been through all of these years. God loves a simple person. Know nothing, give up all of your intellectual knowledge.
We were in the park so I said to her, “Look at this tree. Do you know what this tree is?” She said, “Yes it’s a tree.” So I said, “No, tree is a name that we gave it. We called it tree.
We could of called it dog or cat or cabbage or soup, but we gave it a name as a tree. So we believe we know what a tree is. But if you think about it you know absolutely nothing about the tree. Except that it appears as your body does. Where did it come from? How did it originate? What came first the seed or the tree? Why is there a tree? Nobody can explain that and this is true of every object.” Start your spiritual sadhana by realizing, “I do not know what anything is at all.”
Take the dog for instance: Why is this a dog? Where did it come from? Why is it here? We call it dog but again we could have called it soup or cabbage or chocolate. We say, “I know what a dog is, that’s a dog.” But go deeper than that. What is a dog? How did it originate? Where did the first dog come from? You don’t know do you? And do the same to every object you see. That is how you develop humility. The first thing you have to do is to develop humility and you have to work on yourself that way. Realizing that you know nothing. You’ve got a Ph.D. in philosophy yet you know nothing do you? You just know words, you can confound everyone with words. What has that gotten you all of this time?
And she admitted, “Unhappiness, suffering.”
As you develop these traits a subtle energy will take place within you. You will be able to experience higher states of consciousness. Then you will be able to understand when I say, “I am not the body. I am not the mind. I am not the doer. I am ultimate oneness, I am consciousness, I am absolute reality, Parabrahman, that I am,” and you will be free.
Basically that’s how you begin, you practice self-inquiry. You develop humility and compassion at the same time. You develop devotion and you think about these things all day long. I asked her, “Have you been thinking of all these things all day long? So she said, “No I forgot.” “How often do you think about these things that we discussed?” So she said, “Only when I meditate.” “When do you meditate?” “Twenty minutes in the morning.”
“So where is your mind the rest of the day?” “On worldly things.”
“If your mind is on worldly things how can you expect to wake up? As above so below, as within so without, you are exactly where you are supposed to be. You are in the position you are supposed to be by the work you’ve been doing to yourself. You have not taken it seriously. If you want to wake up it has to be a 24 hour a day job. Even when you are sleeping and when you are dreaming. You have to be awake and be the witness to your sleep. The witness to your dreams. And of course the witness to your waking state. If you learn to do these things something will happen. You will either be attracted to the teacher you need at the time or the teacher within you will push you forward and you will awaken. But I can assure you, if you just practice the things shared with you, you will see remarkable results. Now go home and do it.”
Questions?
SD: I have a question, I’ve never understood the instruction, follow the I-thought to the spiritual heart. That seems like such a physical, mental amount of time not to be attached to the body. And what process are you talking about?
R: When you follow the I-thought you’re abiding in the I. What you are doing is you are asking yourself, “Who am I?” And you image the I in yourself. You see the I going into the spiritual heart. You watch it. By saying, “Who am I?” over and over again you are abiding in the I. (SD: I understand that part but I don’t understand the spiritual heart in a teaching that teaches the heart is not real?) The spiritual heart is the abode of God. That’s where God, or consciousness or absolute reality presides, on the right side of your chest. It is a metaphor. It doesn’t really exist. But as we are on the path we need a place in which the I may go to make you understand there is a higher power that takes over when the I disappears. So you may, with your eyes closed think of the I as going from the brain down into the heart center. And you may see the heart center as a sphere of white light, brilliant light a billion times brighter than the sun. Or you may see in your heart center your favorite teacher. Whether he is Buddha or Jesus or Moses or Ramana Maharshi, whomever you favor. See that teacher in the center of your heart, in the light and see your I being consumed by that particular deity.
SD: You mean your I, your individuality?
R: Your individuality. As if you’re diving off the diving board and you’re going down. So the I is going from the brain that believes it’s an I, down into the heart and becomes consumed. And when it becomes consumed your real Self shines forth in all its glory and splendor.
So you can imagine the I anyway you like. You can actually imagine an I, the individuality going down or you can repeat “Who am I?” or you can just feel something is happening. My ego, my mind is being consumed by reality and feel the presence. If you practice this it’ll come by itself. It’ll happen by itself and it’ll become easier and easier. But when some people start and they do this for five-seconds, then they go back to it next month, it becomes harder and harder. Therefore you have to practice.
It makes no difference how long it takes. Forget about time. It makes no difference if you believe that you are making a mistake or you are not doing it right. There is no right and there is no wrong. It’s your attitude that counts. Do not use dry words and think you have to do something a certain way for it to work. If you have an attitude of humility, of surrender, of love, of compassion it will take care of it for you and you will be free in no time.
Feel free to ask any kind of question you like or make a statement or throw things at me.
SX: I think Krishnamurti is the sanest man I have ever encountered in my whole life.
R: I agree with you. (SX: And I don’t think he is just for intellectuals. And he himself said that your body had merged and understood what he was talking about.) Krishnamurti was a great person, a very great person. He had his mission and he accomplished it. What I wanted to do of course is to clear up why he despises teachers and tells everybody they do not need anyone else. But I respect him whole heartedly.
Let’s sing a couple of songs.
(songs sung)
R: Feel free to make any statements or questions or anything you’d like to ask.
We’re one happy family here so don’t be afraid to say anything.
SB: So being free from the I. Realization is being free from the I right?
Jorge (SR): Robert, I feel like everyday I go out into the playing field where there is just nothing but I’s and it’s very frustrating I feel sometimes anger at myself because to play in that world which is the only one which I really know you have to pretend like it’s real.
R: Not really. See that’s the test you’re going through. What you have to do is to question yourself, “To whom does this come?” In other words, “Who is going through all this?” You have to work on yourself and not pretend for the benefit of others. (SR: But it feels like if I really do except that, I drop into a void that seems empty and unfamiliar and unrewarding at this moment. If I’m dealing in the playing field of all the I’s. It’s like I’m sort of the odd ball in the world of this game.) That’s your ego playing tricks on you. That’s when you really have to inquire, “Who feels this? To whom does it come?”
SD: Could you say, “Who pretends to play the game?”
R: If that helps you. (SD: For a change?) If that helps of course. But the whole idea is to realize that the I is the culprit. And follow the I to the heart center. Where it merges with infinite reality and you become liberated.
Jorge (SR): I guess what I mean by that is that all of a sudden I - to do it right I’ll have to sort of feel like a leaf just sort of blowing hither and there without effort?
R: No you don’t. That’s your reasoning. That’s how you see it. But you don’t have to do all these things. See you are making all these stories about yourself. Don’t do that, leave it alone. Just follow the I. Don’t come to any conclusions. Don’t say what’s going to happen or what’s not going to happen. Leave the world alone and follow the I. And you will be taken care of. Everything will work out.
SB: Robert, Bob says it feels unrewarding. Isn’t it the mind that feels it unrewarding?
And who feels it unrewarding?
R: The ego. (SB: The ego feels it unrewarding because it’s avoid to the ego, it’s like different territory. So the ego only wants excitement and entertainment. So it’s unrewarding to it.) Of course it’s unrewarding, the ego, the I, the same thing, will always play tricks on you. And will make you believe all sorts of things. Will bring up all kinds of things. Will make you feel sorry for yourself. Will make you hate people. Will make you become completely disillusioned. The ego I does all that. So you have to wise up to that and be aware of what’s going on. And always come back to the question, “To whom is this happening? Who is going though this? Who feels this way? And you’ll say, “I do, what is the source of the I?”
or “Who am I?” And then you follow the I to the heart. Where it will ultimately disappear.
The same for everything. (SB: So I can say to myself, “Okay ego be unrewarded to infinity. Be unrewarded to the maximum. To the maximum amount?” And just surrender to being unrewarded to infinity?”) If you want to do that, that’s fine. But rather than think about that, keep your mind on God. Keep your mind on the I. Ask, “To whom does this come?” It’s easier that way. (SB: But then there is a point where there isn’t any mind to … you know when you’re in the void, when you’re in the silence?) It’ll take care of itself. Don’t concern yourself with the silence. If you do the practice everything will happen in its own time. So you’re questioning as if you know. As if you the ego is going to become this and is going to become that. But you’re saying that. Forget about all that. Simply do the work and let the chips fall where they may. Everything will work out.
Even in all the scriptures it says, “If you keep your mind on God, all will go well with you.” Because you are entering a new dimension. In that dimension there is peace, there is harmony, there is joy, there is love, there is realization. So if you stay centered in that dimension you will become free. Therefore don’t think about the negatives, accentuate the positive. ( SB: So being centered in that dimension and being stabilized or being established in that other - is very important?) Yes. (SB: Not just jump in and out of it, you know?) To be able to stay there. (SB: Stay there.) And when everything comes to you, anything comes to you otherwise, ask, “To whom does it come?”
SX: Why do you need truth?
R: To get you going. (SX: But you have to - just as you said, just do the work. Get implicit with it. Didn’t you say that? I have to have faith? I have to have faith, as if there will be intervention.) For some people in the beginning stages they have to have some faith in what they are doing otherwise they wouldn’t do it. (SX: I know but I’m denying it. But you said the more faith. I don’t understand the greater the faith?) Faith to me is like grace. If you have faith, if you have grace, then it becomes easier for you. (SX: To me grace and faith are not the same?) Well they are perfectly the same to me. That’s what I mean when I say faith. (SX: But grace just is?) Faith and grace are the same to me. Which means that faith just is, you have faith that’s the way it is. You have faith in what you’re doing and that is grace pushing you. (SX: But isn’t that a thought, faith or is it…) If you’re thinking about it, it’s a thought. But you need that thought to get rid of the thought. (SX: Yeah, there’s a bit of a doubt?) To get rid of everything. You have to have some faith in what you are doing. So you can get rid of it.
Just like you use the mind to get rid of the mind because that’s the only equipment you’ve got. (SX: To be natural?) You are naturally sensitive to the fact that your mind doesn’t exist.
But you are using the mind to realize that it doesn’t exist. And when you follow your mind or the I to the source, it all disappears of its own accord. But in the beginning you use your mind you use faith. You use whatever you have to use to lift yourself up and go forward.
SB: If we had a 100% faith would that be like a 100 percent surrender?
R: It would be a 100% realization. (SB: 100% Realization.) Of course. (SB: If we had a 100 percent faith that we were realized right now, we’d be completely surrendered into that…) Yes.
(SB: …Then something would happen probably?) Of course.
R: You see Josephine none of it exists to begin with. Nothing I’m talking about exists. But we have to use words and we have to explain what a person should do to have
SE: Robert one time you mentioned that there were different functions to the different methods of self-inquiry? Like doing “I Am,” mantra, has a different function by reducing Maya and asking “who am I?” brings you more quickly to realization? I would assume that practicing “I, I”
also has a different function? Could you explain or go into these?
R: “I - I” makes you understand that only the I exists. The big I. You are following “I - I”. The big I is annihilating the small I and then only I or Self remains. When you say, “I Am” you are invoking the great “I Am.” Reality itself and you are instantly in that reality.
There is nothing else to get rid of. You remain in I Am. When you say,“Who am I?” You are again getting rid of the small I. The ego, the thoughts, the I-thought. By realizing everything in this world is attached to this I-thought. The universe, God, experiences, the body, the mind are all attached to I. And by saying, “Who am I?” Everything becomes obliterated and merges in itself and you become free.
So you use whatever method pleases you at the time. Whatever method you’ve got an infinity with…affinity, that is the method you use. You can alternate, you get tired of using one method you can use another method. But by all means you use whatever methods you have to use to become free.
Jorge (SR): Robert this world of freedom is - I mean I certainly know what it’s like to meditate and feel that bubble of joy and oneness, but I also know that the world of senses brings another degree of pleasure to (whether it be doing something creative in the arts or…) it is a pleasure so far that’s just as equal as the feeling of that silence and peace that comes from quiet meditation which may not mean realization but - I guess what I’m afraid of is that I will inherit in the end just this empty void, this divorce from these sensual rewards - I don’t want it to mean sensual in the sense…
R: It doesn’t work that way. I understand what you’re saying. (SR: Okay.) That’s the way that you comprehend it. But let’s look at your pleasures. Say you’re having a dream an in that dream you’re a great king and you have a palace and you have a fortune and you have five wives and you have all kinds of beautiful gold and silver and bracelets, rings and watches and you’re an artist and you are enjoying yourself. But then you wake up and it’s gone.
So with all sensory objects. They are like a dream and you will one day awaken and even if you had these things all during your life, what you call your physical life right now is but a split second in eternity and it’s gone. And that means you are under the law of karma. So you’ll have to come back again and again and experience the opposite to what you’ve experienced in that life. In order to be balanced. You continue to play this game for centuries until you wake up and go after reality. (SR: What is the substance of those - I mean it metaphorically - dreams of those who are enlightened then? What is the pleasures and the joys of just knowing in the I?) Those who’re enlightened experience unexplainable joy and bliss at all times. It never goes away. It’s a feeling beyond words and thoughts.
SD: Robert I remember you gave an example of looking at a sunset, how beautiful just looking at it but being you know you are the sunset makes it much better.
Jorge (SR): Not all of those things still we’re talking in terms of what we know as a material manifestation. (R: Yes.) But none of that is real really but… (R: Exactly.) So when you pull away manifestation you’re left with just a sort of - not even a feeling because that’s senses…
R: No you shouldn’t say anymore because you’re coming from your own experience. That is how you imagine it, it’s not so. When you are yourself, you are absolute reality. And that’s something you have to experience for yourself. (SR: What do those monks do when they have to leave the ashram?) Just exist like you and I. There is nothing to do. They go about their business like you and I do. (SR: Isn’t there sort of a boredom after a while?) (laughter) No. See you are speaking of material experiences. Boredom comes to people who are not enlightened. When you’re enlightened there is no such word. You are the cause, you are the substratum of everything and beyond. (SR: Would you want to create universes in that state just to sort of find out?) No. No. You are speaking of siddhi’s. Those are yogi’s who have developed powers and they fool around with those things. A Jnani has no interest in that. A Jnani is beyond all that stuff. They just rest in their bliss. (SR: Is there a little group of Jnanis that get together and share these things?) When you become a Jnani you’ll find them.
(students laugh)
SK: Robert the resting in bliss sounds like a pretty neat thing, huh? (R: The what?) It sounds like a pretty neat thing just to rest uninterruptedly in bliss. It’d be hard to beat. (Robert and students laughter) …I’d like to hear that more often as a kind of a motivator.
R: Well work on yourself and find out for yourself. This is why I tell you so often, “Why should you believe me?” You shouldn’t take my word for it at all. But you should work on yourself and become totally free.
(tape ends)
Absätze ohne Sprecherpräfix gehören dem zuletzt genannten Sprecher — so steht es im Buch, wo der Präfix nur den Anfang einer Rede markiert. Die Zuordnung ist eine Folgerung dieser Ausgabe. Namen in Klammern sind aus dem Text erschlossen: sicher belegt sind SM = Mary, SF = Fred, SJ = Jay, SC = Nate, wahrscheinlich SG = Glen, SR = Jorge. Alle anderen Kürzel bleiben stehen, weil der Beleg nicht trägt.